A sad state of affairs...

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by Hanzou, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    I was going to start a new post (glad I didn't), but it fits in well here. I took my first wrestling class ever this morning with a really good wrestling coach in the area. It was a private lesson and I wanted to cross-train a bit in between BJJ. Worked on takedown steps, footwork and sprawling. I'm going to be sore tomorrow. Wrestling is so intense on your body, and I'm not saying that in a bad way (although it can be if not careful). The way this guy moved and shot in for the takedown was so fast. Hard to stop that. That's just the tip of the iceberg too.

    In my first BJJ class we worked on a takedown from a front bear hug position. I've haven't been at this school long enough to know how much they do. My instructor studied under Almeida. From what everyone has said though, BJJ is too ground focused for sport. That has it's benefits though.

    I really think Bruce Lee was right after all these years. LOL

    I would say with near certainty that a wrestler training for about a year, maybe even less, would have taken that guy in the video down.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
  2. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    As was said above. Taking someone down in a grappling match is completely different to taking someone down when punches are coming in
     
  3. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    No, but your extreme reaction to an everyday occurrence, i.e. somebody not being excellent while doing bjj, suggests otherwise.
     
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, the spread of BJJ has lead to remarkable technical advancement. Just in the last 20 years or so, there have been significant technical improvements to the fundamentals as well as a host of new moves and deeper understanding of many positions. A large percentage of this advancement has come from outside the Gracie family. In fact, I'd say at this point there are more great instructors outside that Gracie family than in it.

    The downside is that while exploring this deeper understanding of one aspect of the art (grappling), a significant portion of the BJJ community has chosen to neglect another important aspect of the art (defending against strikes and getting into position to apply that grappling skill against strikers.)
     
  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Proficient, not Excellent.
     
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Wrestlers tend to have little trouble taking down strikers, and all they do is grapple with other grapplers.
     
  7. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    The boxer in that video is skilled and comfortable in the drill. He is also a blue belt in BJJ and is well aware of this drill. It says so right under that vid.

    "Believe it or not, a lot of jiu jitsu practitioners believe they can get a good boxer to the ground. Unless you train takedowns regularly or train takedowns and clinching against someone throwing punches, your timing is going to be way off. With this said, it is a bit of a unfair comparison because the boxer is also a blue belt in jiu-jitsu and he knows the objective of this demo/drill. Which is enough to prevent a clinch or takedown. However, it also goes to show that it may not always be that easy getting a takedown or clinch on an opponent. Since this demo, we have been working a lot more takedown drills against striking."

    As for starting a roll from the knees, I like it. I find it safer, in a less-nagging-little-injuries-way, than standing....unless you have really good mats. Not every place I've trained has had really good mats.
    When you're young, it's not that big a deal getting taken down twenty times a night. Once you're past your mid thirties, it becomes an entirely different animal. Yes, yes, you have to know how to fall. But in those twenty take downs a night, one or two are going to be off. And that's where those nagging little bruises, twists, cranks, pulls start to pile up. Especially if you're training three or four nights a week. I think for the first couple years in BJJ more starting from the knees should be done than starting from stand up.

    In my first BJJ school, once every couple weeks we'd start from standing. Oh, my God, it was like Christmas for me! Then, down we'd eventually go - and it was back to work. But, man, I sure did enjoy those standing times. I can see if a student has no Martial experience that he/she would be better off with more stand up beginnings to rolls.

    And let's keep in mind something as we watch that video. It was one drill out of, I'm sure, a boot load of different drills and training methods.
     
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  8. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not if the striker has experience with grappling.

    What happens, which I think people don't seem to understand, is grapplers have an advantage in pure grapple vs pure striking, but that's not because grappling is somehow superior. Most people growing up have some sort of idea of how to throw a punch, it's mostly intuitive. So it does not take a whole lot to get a basic level of proficiency with that, to enable a takedown against someone who's never experienced. Everyone has probably also grappled a sibling or a friend at some point, but it's a lot less intuitive, and they don't gain that basic level of proficiency to learn how to stop someone going for a takedown or throw.
     
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  9. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Again...its about the skill level of them opponents.

    The 2 wrestlers my buddy knocked out thought the same thing.....a broken jaw and a broken orbital bone was a tough lesson to learn for them.
     
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  10. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Yawn
     
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  11. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Yep fact is you go for a takedown. You use both hands so there's nothing left to guard your face with
     
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  12. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    It definitely depends on the skill level in my opinion. If the striker has 0 ground game and 0 tdd thenI'm not sure it won't be that hard? Clinch --> takedown. If you know how to do even a mediocre double leg, you're probably somewhat ahead of the general population. On the flip side, if you're poor at takedowns overall you enter into dangerous territory which can result in some clocks to the face.
     
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  13. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence. :rolleyes:
     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Arm wrapping, arm wrapping, and still arm wrapping.

    How to wrap your opponent's punching arms so he can no longer punch you should be trained in all MA styles.

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    That i can attest to in 1 hour of TKD i could punch and kick well enough, maybe 2 hours. :p
     
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  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When your opponent punches at you, if you keep both arms stiff and move as inward circles, you should be able to create opportunity to establish your "arm wrap".



     
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  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Or you can just be like Kron and wrap them up and do a Guard Pull:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    All I really have to say is the guys in the video look like they’ve ever been formally shown how to do a takedown. They start from way too far out, are going in way too high, they’re bending too far at the waist, and there’s zero commitment to the takedown (in other words they seem way too scared to initiate it and are too quick to abandon it).

    I’m not sure how typical this is of BJJ schools in general, having no BJJ school experience. Perhaps this is why they’re looking to wrestlers?

    What’s the point in being great at ground fighting if you can’t get your opponent to the ground? No different than what’s the point of being great at shooting targets if you can’t get your gun out of the holster and/or turn the safety off.

    You have to be able to get an unwilling opponent to the ground in order to beat them on the ground. Common sense. Although I constantly question why it’s called common sense when it’s not very common nowadays.
     
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  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Again, coming from my background in Gjj, it's shocking to see schools neglecting the takedown. Jump and Pull Guard works against Wrestlers and Judoka and is a high percentage takedown, but we can't rely on it for everything, we need a well-rounded takedown game.
     
  20. TMA17

    TMA17 Black Belt

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    It would be ideal if BJJ schools started off with Judo (or wrestling but keeping it in the family perferably Judo) and worked into BJJ from there. There are some schools that do that but very hard to find. You have to obviously get the guy to the ground first.
     

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