Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".....What was your expirience at Lim's seminar???...."

It was okay, not particularly great and not particularly bad. Since it was a kind of "introductory" seminar the material was not the real centerpiece as kind of having a way of introducing GM Lim. He spent a load of time down at one end of the floor with White and Yellow Belts and we covered a lot of introductory information and a host of drills to reinforce his principles.

My experience with seminars is a bit skewed as I am used to going into a seminar and have GM Myung bust my butt for a weekend. There was usually a theme for the higher ranks, a review of the kebonsu for the lower ranks and then focus on one of the weapons with tie-ins to how the weapon under discussion related to what we do MT-handed. Lim-s didn't have that flavor.

Now I should also share that folks who followed him back to the East Coast from Chicago later reported that his seminars out there were labor-like affairs. Thats why I think you you do well to try him out for yourself. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hollywood1340]

Well people without the time for ICHF enjoy watching the WWE and sitcoms. Sitcoms because it's over in ONLY 1/2 hour, then then can find time to do more important stuff. And as far as shorting the curriculum, you are correct. I can have the same effect in far less time with a given technique. AND do it in less space. But only we truely privy to the ICHF know this. On a more serious note. Ahem. We have just had a BB in THKD sign with us. For a defense against two hands grabbed in back in back going to a centerlock he was suprised at although we both ended in the same position, how we got there was different, and took marketdly (sp?) less time and movement. He recognized how it worked, but had never seen it done that way before. I then took the time to learn his way. And I must admit I liked it more. That is why I think it's not ME our YOU GUYS, it's us. We both have something to share. Thank you for the discussion!

 

[Hollywood1340]

Greetings

That sounds to dumb to be true, on the other hand it makes sense cause JP never had time to really learn HKD. Just Kidding!

Are the other courses in CH like WC, BJJ, HKD, Kali also the abridged version?

Abridged according to whom? If you're looking to do what we do, and how we do it, yes they work just fine. IF you're looking into taking and making an ART of it, you might look elsewhere. But for our purposes the work very well. And most anywone from WC, BJJ or Kali will say "Ah yes, we have that too"

 

[American HKD]

Dear James,

I apreciated the fact that you're reluctantly are taking part in this discussion.

Myself and another member have asked you very straight questions about explaining what CH is, the Philosophy, what it's trying to accomplish, but you have'nt responed yet.

If you can please try I will appreciate it.

 

[zac_duncan]

I can have the same effect in far less time with a given technique. AND do it in less space.

Far less time spent training or less time spent executing or both? Also, in less space? You've got an "AHEM" in there , so I'll assume you're joking but if not, at my school we fight damned close, right up on top of each other. It's essential for most techniques to be very, very close to your parter/opponent. Minimizes the threat of counters, makes you harder to hit for any friends he might have, etc...

That is why I think it's not ME our YOU GUYS, it's us. We both have something to share. Thank you for the discussion!

Excellent point. I've been curious about CHKD, just to know what's different. It's nice to get a perspective on it, though I am still a bit confused about what's different. The name confused me at first, since it seems that true HKD is "combat" HKD, so I'm still kind of searching for the key difference.

 

[glad2bhere]

As long as we are poking around at the basics there is another theme that doesn't get talked about a whole heck of a lot.

If you read Draeger, he relates that yawara proceeds from the original view that the only reason a person would want to wrestle around with another guy is to get them into a position where you could use a knife or weapon of opportunity on them. The wrestling was essentially a four position kind of grappling and the whole Idea was to get the guy pinned up against something (the ground is good ) and then dispatch them or even bind them up. Yoroi something or other was what it was called. Draeger goes on to say that the origins of yawara proceed from a change in philosophy commonly attributed to the Chinese (Buddhists, maybe?) in which the idea of taking a guy down was not necessarily to take him out but to render him harmless (which I guess COULD include taking him out )

Now the reason I am contemplating this is that Choi reports to have taught "yawara". But up to the point that Chin Na and Yawara were observed in Korea there is nothing to indicate that the typical Korean held any lofty ideas about taking responsibility for NOT killing his opponent in a battlefield situation. In fact, the old reading of the O-Gae (#5) "that I may make a just kill" was only modified with the Japanese Occupation (maybe afterwards).

Since we had mentioned the idea of Choi Yong Suls' philosophy sometime back I wonder if in pressing the idea of yawara he was elevating the ethic of Korean martial traditions at the same time. I wonder if this was a conscious effort or if it just came along with the material that he taught. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

As long as we are poking around at the basics there is another theme that doesn't get talked about a whole heck of a lot.

If you read Draeger, he relates that yawara proceeds from the original view that the only reason a person would want to wrestle around with another guy is to get them into a position where you could use a knife or weapon of opportunity on them. The wrestling was essentially a four position kind of grappling and the whole Idea was to get the guy pinned up against something (the ground is good ) and then dispatch them or even bind them up. Yoroi something or other was what it was called. Draeger goes on to say that the origins of yawara proceed from a change in philosophy commonly attributed to the Chinese (Buddhists, maybe?) in which the idea of taking a guy down was not necessarily to take him out but to render him harmless (which I guess COULD include taking him out )

Now the reason I am contemplating this is that Choi reports to have taught "yawara". But up to the point that Chin Na and Yawara were observed in Korea there is nothing to indicate that the typical Korean held any lofty ideas about taking responsibility for NOT killing his opponent in a battlefield situation. In fact, the old reading of the O-Gae (#5) "that I may make a just kill" was only modified with the Japanese Occupation (maybe afterwards).

Since we had mentioned the idea of Choi Yong Suls' philosophy sometime back I wonder if in pressing the idea of yawara he was elevating the ethic of Korean martial traditions at the same time. I wonder if this was a conscious effort or if it just came along with the material that he taught. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Greetings

I don't know if this helps any but it might shed some light?

I believe that Hapkido came from "Yawara". Did this Yawara come from Takeda your guess is as good as mine. What the exact nature of this yawara was or what Ryu HKD came from is unknown for sure.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Yawara was desended from Chin Na because Yawara is an ancient system that pre-date "Ju" philosohy by at least 500 years. "Ju" was already associated with being a Martial Taoist not a Warrior as in the ealier Yawara.

Yawara may have been the first codified system of Locks, throws, strikes using the "gentle or yielding philosophy"

Chin Na was never a style unto itself as it's found today, but was part of the curriculums of most Kung Fu systems each system having different ways of using Chin NA.

Unfortunately I have been unable to find a lot of solid info on Yawara because of it's age and it being replaced by Ju for so long already.

 

[tshadowchaser]

May we please get back to the discussion of Hapkido and its origins

Other than political views and maybe the desire to make money why are there a growing number of Hapkido federations and how are they differing from one another.
If Hapkido is traced back to its first founder how did his forming of Hapkido differ from whatever training he had befor he made up the system

 

[American HKD]

May we please get back to the discussion of Hapkido and its origins

Other than political views and maybe the desire to make money why are there a growing number of Hapkido federations and how are they differing from one another.
If Hapkido is traced back to its first founder how did his forming of Hapkido differ from whatever training he had befor he made up the system

I'll sit out the remainder of this thread, a person with some major input and knowledge can't comment which make things less interesting for me.

Sorry

 

[Mike-IHF]

tshadowchaser,

Since it does not seem any one else will bite, I will. In my opinion Money is probably tthe biggest reason. Other than that I would have to say recognition, and Ego. Unfortunetly this has been an ongoing thing since Choi Youn-Sul's first students. I feel many of the students of Choi's felt that his teachings were not Korean enough. Which is understandable, do to the hatred between the two countries. As far as nowadays, your question being why is there so many different organizations, and how they differ from one another?

I would have to say again Recognition. Someone always wants to be at the top. Mainly because when you reach the top, inturn you get more power, and with power more ego. Unfortunetly most people that start going in that direction never come back.

To answer your second part, How do they differ from one another? I would simply say, either not enough knowledge in the art to begin with when they start there organization, and/or the mix other arts into it and put a label on it and market it as Hapkido. Sad thing is there does not seem to be an end in site for people to do this. Unless our goverment decides to regulate it more, like they do in Korea. But I don't see that happening anytime while I'm alive.

For your last question. I don't think that Choi's system differed that much from what he was originally taught. With the exception of more kicking to have more kick defense, since there was a lack of this in the system that he learned. And for the fact that he was teaching civilians. There are certain things that you do have to withhold from your students, until you feel there is trust enough, and that student can handle the responsability of learning such things. However some people chosse to teach the more brutal techniques up front. Which me personally feel is dangerous. Until you truley know someone you should not be teaching certain things to them. Nowadays you never know who is affiliated with terrorist groups, gangs, etc. So inessence I think Choi probably had to hold things back, with maybe the exception of certain students of his. Just my two cents.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

IMHO I don't think Bruce shouldn't have been suspended I think this was about ego and a power struggle with a moderator.

No, this was repeated disrespect directed at our staff. Mr. Simms had been told repeatedly how to complain if there was a problem. He chose not to go through proper channels.

For the record, the correct procedure is to either open a thread in the support forum, or contact Seig or myself (in that order) directly.

Grow Up Here your taking yourselves way to seriously the pushisment doesn't fit the crime.

Complaints about staff should be directed to [email protected].

Also bester's comment much worse than Bruce's, I guess money talks.

Mr. Bester has also been suspended. For the record, we have banned at least 2 major investors and suspended a dozen others in the last year. You can not buy a "get out of jail free" card here.

Now, any further comments concerning this issue, moderation or moderators in general, etc should be done in the proper manner so as to not disrupt this thread any further.

Good Day Ladies and Gentlemen.
- Bob

 

[Mithios]

I'll sit out the remainder of this thread, a person with some major input and knowledge can't comment which make things less interesting for me.

Sorry

I'll second that !!

 

[shesulsa]

The discussion on pedagogy and techniques and CHKD vs. THKD has been moved to Basics of Hapkido thread.

I've also created a new thread for the general discussion of whatever your hearts desire - Hapkidoin can "flow" as much as they like! Start it up and just keep on going.

Enjoy!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I don't think that Choi's system differed that much from what he was originally taught. With the exception of more kicking to have more kick defense, since there was a lack of this in the system that he learned.

I am not sure you can say that what DJN Choi taught lacked kicking or kick defense. What you see as Diato Ryu today is not necessarily the same thing that DJN Choi learned.

And for the fact that he was teaching civilians. There are certain things that you do have to withhold from your students, until you feel there is trust enough, and that student can handle the responsability of learning such things. However some people chosse to teach the more brutal techniques up front. Which me personally feel is dangerous. Until you truley know someone you should not be teaching certain things to them.

It is my understanding that DJN Choi taught the very difficult material in the beginning and the more dangerous material along with the energy techniques later.

Nowadays you never know who is affiliated with terrorist groups, gangs, etc. So inessence I think Choi probably had to hold things back, with maybe the exception of certain students of his.

I believe this to be the case as well. DJN Choi was very vocal about certain things some of his students were doing he did not like and did not feel was representative of Hapkido.

Anyway there are different flavors in the art of Hapkido and that gives people choices wich is a good thing IMHO. :asian:

 

[Mike-IHF]

Mr.Miller,

Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make one clarification. In the first section that you quted me on, I was actually refering to Choi's system having MORE kicking, and kick defense. I was saying that I believe that what he learned in Japan lacked the kicks, and kick defense, Not that Choi's system lacked it. Thanks.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to make one clarification. In the first section that you quted me on, I was actually refering to Choi's system having MORE kicking, and kick defense. I was saying that I believe that what he learned in Japan lacked the kicks, and kick defense, Not that Choi's system lacked it. Thanks.

DJN Choi always claimed that he had one teacher only so all that he learned was from one person. There is much debate on who that was! As for me I believe DJN Choi.

It is great to have some good discussion without all the insults. :asian:

Take care

 

[whalen]

Todd,

I will give you a call so we can talk somtime this week inbetween therapy and lifes obstacles


Hal

 

[Mike-IHF]

Master Miller, Howard,

I moved this discussion to this thread as to keep from getting off topic of the other thread. I'm not going to keep this discussion going since I feel that it's a never ending topic. So I'll write this last post regarding this discussion.

Master Miller, and Howard,

I understand fully where your comming from. And in your reply I can understand what you mean. However, even if GM Lim's view of "orthodox" is not to undermind other Hapkido groups, the problem is the term "orthodox" within in it's self suggest that. I don't even like the term used in religion, for the simple fact that I believe all faiths have a place. Just like Hapkido, or martial arts in general. For instance, what if I started a Hapkido group and I started calling it "Gnostic Hapkido" Gnostic meaning "to Know". I think I would get alot of people saying the same thing I'm saying to you. On that note, I'm sure GM Lim is a humble man, and hopefully I'll get the chance to meet him, and train with you guys. But, I honestly think it's weird for an older Korean man to use the term "orthodox" especially, since it is a term not familiar in Korean culture, with the exception of the spread of the Catholic church to Korea, which still to this day is not a prominant religion. Korea is mostly made up of Bhuddist, and no adays the growing population of Christianity. To me it sounds more of a american marketing term. But that is my own opinion. But if you say other wise, than I'll take your word for it. Anyway, you guys take care. BTW, I'm planning on doing a seminar sometime in the next few months. I'm trying to arrange like a all day outside seminar at one of the local parks. I'm in corispondence with a BJJ instructor, we are thinking about having both of us put on a seminar. Where people can join in on either the Hapkido, or Bjj, or both. I'll keep you all updated on that, and maybe you will be able to attend.