Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins

[howard]

Howard, for whatever your political agenda is, I am not a rash person...

Mr Sogor,

I have no political agenda. Please dont' read more into what I wrote than is there. Had I wanted to broaden my question, I would have. I merely asked you - as directly as possible - what you meant when you say that you are the only "authentic" hapkido school in the Chicago area.

From your answer, I can understand your meaning. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[American HKD]

Hello all,
Stuart, nice post. Pretty close to nailing it.

In my original signature block, I simply stated that I was preserving original Hapkido for future generations. I meant just that. My "political" bend if you will is that Hapkido is the art originated by Dojunim Choi - this is what I have always been taught and this is my continued belief.

A problem I have always had is the use of Hapkido as a generic term to describe any and all throwing arts that someone devises in Korea or by a Korean, or with Korean flavor. I have pointed out a few here over time. Nowhere in that block does it say "mine is more authentic" - it just says authentic. Now as I have stated here, I will point out things I do not believe to be tracable back to Dojunim Choi - but frankly, if someone is happy learning something, I am not one to say that is inherently wrong - but maybe the use of the name Hapkido is. Lots of groups have also taken Hapkido as a base and call it something completely different, and as I see it, way to go - when you want to define yourself, good job. I thought that the block was innocuous - as Hollywood said here - we all see ourselves as Authentic in our eyes - so in all the places that both I and Stuart use this tag (not to drag you in this Stu) is this the one place it is complained about?

I rarely play the rank and time in card unless I have to - but a member here who is 11 years my junior in training time (not worried about wallpaper) seems obsessed with complaining about this signature block (the first one) - even though it is not directed at him - or anyone else for that matter. Since again, in the course of this thread, this junior member decided to complain yet again about this block, I decided that I should add a defining tag line to the block. I have discussed options with the moderators (including to my dismay MISSPELLING shesulsa's name - sorry again) and understanding their postion, decided that there is no need to directly comment to the babbling brook of misinformation - but rather define further what exactly I meant - particularly for the edification of that junior member.

Howard, for whatever your political agenda is, I am not a rash person. This addition was deliberate and thought out. As I am a firm believer in the Authenticity of the lineage of Dojunim Choi, and have always been taught that, I am just as conscience that Ji Han Jae and his adherants represent 90% of the world's Hapkido. That being said, I examined Chicago and its Hapkido. There is one instructor that has a fleeting past of connection directly to Dojunim Choi, but the instructor of this person left Hapkido to form his own thing - and the current instructor now does not teach, but imports grads from Yong-In university - which does not have a Hapkido program (so they are no longer teaching Hapkido actively). There are several offshoots of the Ji structure here, but they have all gone their own way and added forms, and other non-Hapkido elements - but to my knowledge, there is no one that is currently directly affiliated with Sin Moo at all in Chicago. Again, at least not with a dojang.

This use of dojang was also important because I know for a fact that their are Hapkido people in Chicago who have Ji lineage, but they do not teach or have dojangs. The junior member does not have a dojang, but a college program. Dojang to me is more than just a room you use a few hours a week, but a dedicated space where matial arts are practiced (to explain that definintion.)

For the record, although I am a proud member of the Jung Ki Kwan, I do not use that membership here to bolster my position. I may comment on those issues raised directly about Grandmaster Lim, but would not feel comfortable speaking for him, or standing on his "coattails" to further my position in any way - and if I ever did that, I should not have. There are several other members of the Jung Ki Kwan here on this board and in the US, and I would not want my belief or opinion to affect any efforts they may be making by assuming that we may all share the same opinions - because clearly we do not all share the same experience and background. I respect those other members enough to never openly challenge them without asking within channels if an open question will cause a problem for them in any way - and will continue with this belief.

Howard, what else do you want to know?

Dear Kevin

After my last post and something Bruce said the other day I realized how subjective it is to say "Authentic HKD". it's only my opinion that it's authentic.

I now sign my signature using "Tradtional Hapkido". With that being said it's also only my opinion that I teach Trad. Hapkido.

Someone else may say I don't, but his school does.

Everyone has thier own style, version, attitude about it.

I asked Ji Han Jae about all the people changing his system, he said it's Ok because he's the ROOT! that's all he cares about.

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,


"I asked Ji Han Jae about all the people changing his system, he said it's Ok because he's the ROOT! that's all he cares about."

And that my friend, is the nature of it all. To me this is what I have always believed. The lineage thing is not as relevant as many people like to talk about. As far as I'm concerned wether you have lineage from Choi, or Ji it does not matter. Because both of these men ARE infact the main roots of Hapkido. And just like in life, any tree that has roots, will automatically grow branches. This is why I think GM Chang does not talk much. He knows where his roots are, and just teaches. He does not get caught up in the BS. Like I have said, in 40 some years of teaching he has only promoted 9 people to 5th Dan or above. He does not argue with anyone, he does not put out books, or video's to make himself more, money or be more commercial. He just does, what he does and that's it. I am in no means a senior of Hapkido, but I have met some really good Hapkido teachers/students. Whether they are part of Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. they are all good practitioners of Hapkido. I do what I do because Ilike what we teach, it has everything that I could want in martial arts, and in life. And I have the upmost respect for GM Chang, and Master Allen. I'm sure everyone here feels the same about there group, and art.

 

[glad2bhere]

I think you folks are on the right track. As I see it the place where we (and previous generations) have gotten into trouble is using lineage as some sort of absolute. I see it more as an indicator or guage. The closer to the trunk a person is, the more credit I give them. Duration counts for depth in that credit. This is also why I tend not to give as much credence to organizational affiliation as personal affiliation. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Stuart,


"I asked Ji Han Jae about all the people changing his system, he said it's Ok because he's the ROOT! that's all he cares about."

And that my friend, is the nature of it all. To me this is what I have always believed. The lineage thing is not as relevant as many people like to talk about. As far as I'm concerned wether you have lineage from Choi, or Ji it does not matter. Because both of these men ARE infact the main roots of Hapkido. And just like in life, any tree that has roots, will automatically grow branches. This is why I think GM Chang does not talk much. He knows where his roots are, and just teaches. He does not get caught up in the BS. Like I have said, in 40 some years of teaching he has only promoted 9 people to 5th Dan or above. He does not argue with anyone, he does not put out books, or video's to make himself more, money or be more commercial. He just does, what he does and that's it. I am in no means a senior of Hapkido, but I have met some really good Hapkido teachers/students. Whether they are part of Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. they are all good practitioners of Hapkido. I do what I do because Ilike what we teach, it has everything that I could want in martial arts, and in life. And I have the upmost respect for GM Chang, and Master Allen. I'm sure everyone here feels the same about there group, and art.

Dear Mike,

Clarify your 1st sentence because, lineage is Important because many claim they do Hapkido when in fact they have no lineage!

All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.

That's what Ji means about being the ROOT he's the Master of all of the above listed. Ji is not the Root of some guy who make a HKD system up like a MMA type system.

There's still a line that you can't cross and be considered "legit HKD"

 

[howard]

Dear Mike,

Clarify your 1st sentence because, lineage is Important because many claim they do Hapkido when in fact they have no lineage!

All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.

Stuart, Mike...

Perhaps what Mike means is that people who are affiliated with the organizations and masters mentioned above are "legitimate" by definition, and that their lineage doesn't matter in that all of these masters are accepted as legitimate by the hapkido community at large? And surely there are others? (for example, Master Rim in Baltimore...)

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Howard:

Now I think we are back on shakey ground again, because your observation comes down to which "hapkido community" you may be talking about.

For instance in the matter of GM Rim (Baltimore), his approach to Hapkido is wonderful. People following him would undoubtedly think so. Those folks who subscribe to Joe Sheya might think the same of Sheya. But outside of BOTH respective schools the view might be very different. The same could be said of GM Myung compared to me and then again GM Myung compared to John Pelligrini. You are going to have different views betwixt and between the groups associated with each personality, and then again with those not aligned with any of the aforementioned. With so many judgements flying around all I can advocate for is to keep things as much oriented towards fact and verification as compared to oral tradition and claims. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,

Sorry, I did not mean for my first sentence to be so vague. I will try to put it in better wording. I was not in anyway trying to say that lineage is not important. Especially if your going too market yourself has Hapkido. If a school says the teach Hapkido, ofcourse they should be able to say what their lineage is. However what I was trying to say is this. Let's say you go to a Hapkido school, and what you see looks like good Hapkido technique. Then you ask them what there lineage is and the teacher says well, my Master studied under a 4th Dan student of Ji. And then you go to another school, and ask the same thing. And the teacher says my Master was a student of Choi's for 5years. Does the first school mean that their Hapkido is less of an art. I like to say NO. Each one has there roots. It is up to the teacher to make the art grow. "a seed is just a seed, just because you plant it does not mean it will automatically grow" It is up to nature, water, soil etc. that helps that seed become a tree. And then that tree will polinate, to make other trees. I feel the same with MA"S. Hapkido especially since I'm a part of it. Master Allen always told me "my job is to make you better than me" "If I make you better than me, and you make your students better than you, the art grows" This could not be more true.

On another note- Yes there are alot of people out there that claim they teach Hapkido , and have no if any formal training in the art, and have no l;ineage whatsoever. There is a certain person close to Master Allen's school in Florida. (I will not say is name, cause I don't want to put is name out there like that) but any way. This person has had no formal training in Hapkido. The only training he has recieved was going to a few Bong Soo-Han seminars when he lived in California. He holds a brown belt in Judo. But yet he advertises, markets his school as Hapkido. And believe it or not, his school is packed with students. I agree that people like this are a discrace to the art.

So anyway all my point is that I don't think lineage is something that you can just measure out on a scale. But as long as that teacher teaches as authentic as possible, and carries on the traditions passed down to him wether from Ji, Rim, Kim, Lim, Chang, Han, Myung etc. that's whats important.

 

[howard]

Hi Bruce,

Now I think we are back on shakey ground again, because your observation comes down to which "hapkido community" you may be talking about.

Certainly a fair point. Actually, I was thinking very broadly when I used that term. Basically, all of the people around the globe who study a form of the art that can be traced back to Choi Young Sool.

...For instance in the matter of GM Rim (Baltimore), his approach to Hapkido is wonderful. People following him would undoubtedly think so...

Yes, I'd have to agree with you, even though the only things I know about Master Rim are things I've read in books and on the internet, including his own website. But wouldn't you agree that, as a long-time student of Choi, and given that he claims he teaches exactly what Choi taught him, Master Rim's legitimacy is beyond question?

...With so many judgements flying around all I can advocate for is to keep things as much oriented towards fact and verification as compared to oral tradition and claims.

Sounds reasonable to me. We all know that there are plenty of bogus claims out there, not only in hapkido but in all the other arts as well.

 

[Jungki Hapkido]

Hi.

Interesting thread!

Stuart--You stated,

"All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.

That's what Ji means about being the ROOT he's the Master of all of the above listed. Ji is not the Root of some guy who make a HKD system up like a MMA type system."

I do agree that there are many out there who may be legit HKD people.

However, I do not believe that GM Ji is the root of all of the above as you stated...

GM Lim, Hyun Soo of the Jung Ki Kwan studied directly with Choi, Yong Sul.
Therefore he is not the root of the Jung Ki Kwan.

Founder Choi, Yong Sul would be the root in this instance.
Just wanted to clarify that....


Thanks!
Mike

Mike D'Aloia
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Kuhapdo
Iron Eagle Hapkido

 

[glad2bhere]

"....Yes, I'd have to agree with you, even though the only things I know about Master Rim are things I've read in books and on the internet, including his own website. But wouldn't you agree that, as a long-time student of Choi, and given that he claims he teaches exactly what Choi taught him, Master Rim's legitimacy is beyond question?...."

In a word, "no".

We Humans confuse a lot of words sometimes. "Trust", "faith" and "belief" are three that used interchangeably--- a lot. Most of what we do is go on "faith" with a lot of these personalities. They might say that they have "trained with" somebody for 20 years. Now, what does that mean? Did they get together daily, every day for 20 years? Did they show-up once a week--- once a month--- every six monthes? Do they teach "exactly" what they were taught, or do they teach something "similar" to what they were taught? They have a 6th Dan rank on the wall---- where did that come from? They say its a legit certificate that they earned and was granted by a legitimate leader in the community? Do we "know" that its not an "airline promotion" or courtesy of a bottle of WHITE OUT? How about the guys who have seven arts posted on the front of their school. Do they really know 7 arts? Do they really teach 7 arts? Did they really train in seven arts?

Personally, Howard, ya know what "I" think? I think this is one of the reasons a lot of folks running schools today would rather not get too many people together and have them start comparing notes. Pretty soon people start asking questions like 2+2 is not coming out to "4".

For myself I quit listening to the "leadership" a long time ago. What I check out now is their students. If the students are problematic I simply write the teacher off. Pretty much its that simple. Regarding GM Rim, I don't think I have ever heard any garbage out of his students. Maybe others have but I haven't. That makes him OK--- at least in my book. Can't speak for others. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[shesulsa]

Moderator Note:

This thread has been split off of the original since this ongoing, tired discussion of Hapkido origins is completely off topic from the original post - again.

For the record, any more discussions that degrade into this diatribe will be split off from future infractions to this thread.

Gentlemen, stay on topic.

Georgia Ketchmark
MartialTalk
Sr. Moderator

 

[American HKD]

Stuart,

Sorry, I did not mean for my first sentence to be so vague. I will try to put it in better wording. I was not in anyway trying to say that lineage is not important. Especially if your going too market yourself has Hapkido. If a school says the teach Hapkido, ofcourse they should be able to say what their lineage is. However what I was trying to say is this. Let's say you go to a Hapkido school, and what you see looks like good Hapkido technique. Then you ask them what there lineage is and the teacher says well, my Master studied under a 4th Dan student of Ji. And then you go to another school, and ask the same thing. And the teacher says my Master was a student of Choi's for 5years. Does the first school mean that their Hapkido is less of an art. I like to say NO. Each one has there roots. It is up to the teacher to make the art grow. "a seed is just a seed, just because you plant it does not mean it will automatically grow" It is up to nature, water, soil etc. that helps that seed become a tree. And then that tree will polinate, to make other trees. I feel the same with MA"S. Hapkido especially since I'm a part of it. Master Allen always told me "my job is to make you better than me" "If I make you better than me, and you make your students better than you, the art grows" This could not be more true.

On another note- Yes there are alot of people out there that claim they teach Hapkido , and have no if any formal training in the art, and have no l;ineage whatsoever. There is a certain person close to Master Allen's school in Florida. (I will not say is name, cause I don't want to put is name out there like that) but any way. This person has had no formal training in Hapkido. The only training he has recieved was going to a few Bong Soo-Han seminars when he lived in California. He holds a brown belt in Judo. But yet he advertises, markets his school as Hapkido. And believe it or not, his school is packed with students. I agree that people like this are a discrace to the art.

So anyway all my point is that I don't think lineage is something that you can just measure out on a scale. But as long as that teacher teaches as authentic as possible, and carries on the traditions passed down to him wether from Ji, Rim, Kim, Lim, Chang, Han, Myung etc. that's whats important.

I agree!

Good lineage is good lineage from whoever.

 

[American HKD]

Dear Howard:

Now I think we are back on shakey ground again, because your observation comes down to which "hapkido community" you may be talking about.

For instance in the matter of GM Rim (Baltimore), his approach to Hapkido is wonderful. People following him would undoubtedly think so. Those folks who subscribe to Joe Sheya might think the same of Sheya. But outside of BOTH respective schools the view might be very different. The same could be said of GM Myung compared to me and then again GM Myung compared to John Pelligrini. You are going to have different views betwixt and between the groups associated with each personality, and then again with those not aligned with any of the aforementioned. With so many judgements flying around all I can advocate for is to keep things as much oriented towards fact and verification as compared to oral tradition and claims. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce

You have a point of which camp you may be in.

CH to me is another animal, not in the trad. HKD world. What lineage would a CH HKD student have. JP, Gracies, Wing Chun?

 

[American HKD]

Hi.

Interesting thread!

Stuart--You stated,

"All the Jung Ki Kwan, Sin Moo, Bong Soo-Han's IHF, Myung's IHF, Jin Pal etc. are legit HKD people even though they each do things there own way.

That's what Ji means about being the ROOT he's the Master of all of the above listed. Ji is not the Root of some guy who make a HKD system up like a MMA type system."

I do agree that there are many out there who may be legit HKD people.

However, I do not believe that GM Ji is the root of all of the above as you stated...

GM Lim, Hyun Soo of the Jung Ki Kwan studied directly with Choi, Yong Sul.
Therefore he is not the root of the Jung Ki Kwan.

Founder Choi, Yong Sul would be the root in this instance.
Just wanted to clarify that....


Thanks!
Mike

Mike D'Aloia
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Kuhapdo
Iron Eagle Hapkido

Dear Mike

Sorry you're right I didn't mean GM Lim is from Ji's line.

If you read back a little more you would have seen I copied and pasted that phrase from another poster.

We both were just illustrating what's good HKD lineage is not who comes from whom.

 

[American HKD]

Moderator Note:

This thread has been split off of the original since this ongoing, tired discussion of Hapkido origins is completely off topic from the original post - again.

For the record, any more discussions that degrade into this diatribe will be split off from future infractions to this thread.

Gentlemen, stay on topic.

Georgia Ketchmark
MartialTalk
Sr. Moderator

Ok guys we're off topic lets be careful here!

Also the moderator does'nt like the TIRED lineage discussion again so lets not talk about it anymore.:whip:

 

[shesulsa]

Ok guys we're off topic lets be careful here!

Also the moderator does'nt like the TIRED lineage discussion again so lets not talk about it anymore.:whip:

Clearly you misunderstood. THIS is the thread to talk about lineage, origins. Almost every single thread in Hapkido forum sways to this discussion and the interest here is bogging down. So, this is where the discussion on lineage and origins will go - especially if I find it infiltrating another thread (which it always does, so this will be a long one).

Please tell me there is something else you all love about Hapkido that merits discussion - we are all so VERY eager to hear it.

Georgia Ketchmark
MartialTalk
Sr. Moderator

 

[Jumper53]

It is like a big online game: Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul

Can we re-name this thread?

 

[glad2bhere]

".......It is like a big online game: Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul..."

CRACKED ME UP!!! :ultracool artyon: :ultracool

Too True!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

".......It is like a big online game: Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul..."

CRACKED ME UP!!! :ultracool artyon: :ultracool

Too True!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Pardon my ignorance.

What's Six Degrees of Choi, Yong Sul..." mean?