Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins

[shesulsa]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Georgia Ketchmark
-SR Moderator-

 

[iron_ox]

Merchant,

You consistantly misspell my name. Stop trying to be so dramatic. Just be courteous and at least spell others names correctly.

Again, also read things you write. I never said that the whole random selection did not contain a single piece of Dojunim Choi memorabilia - even the column from TaeKwonDo Times announcing Dojuinm Choi's passing is in that bunch. YOU said look at the older training pictures - where Aikido's Founder is the only one on the wall.

 

[Mike-IHF]

reply,

Truth of the matter is that whenever you have replied to any of my post on this forum, or Budoseek, you have always some issue with what I say, or my federation/school. If I do not come off as being respectful to you, well that's because in the past you have shown me no reason to do so. Respect must be given, in order for it to be earned correct? The entire time I have been a member on this forum or others I have never bashed anyone's style, or say that they do something which they don't. I respect everyone's teaching whatever it may be. The only person that I have ever writenly bashed was a certain person from Florida, which we are all familiar with. But in his case he deserved it.

Back to the topic- These are not the only pictures in the HQ in Korea. There are actually alot of pictures of Choi Young-Sul, they are just not part of the gallery on Mr. Jame's website. The problem I am having with you and certain others is this.

1: (not trying to sound like a victim, but) It does infact seem when someone addresses what I say, it always comes back with attitude, bashing, and critizism.
2: people(including yourself) that want to continuously say that we teach something we do not. I have repeatedly stated GM Chang's lineage. If all of his masters were Hapkido masters, then why do you say our basis is Aikido?

I understand Myung Jae-Nam is an exception, but he himself did not teach pure Aikido. He taught a mix of Hapkido/Aikido. so even his basis is not Aikido, it's Hapkido. So to draw that conclusion is simply incorrect. Lastly ask people who have trained with us if you like. Ask Master D'Aloia if he thinks we do Aikido. He has shared a few techniques with us. Or ask Paul B , he was at the Arnold Classic, and saw Master Allen's techniques. I garantee neither one of them would say we teach Aikido. There is a new student at Master Allen's school in Florida, who studied at Steven Seagal's school. He joined Master Allen because he loved the techniques compared to what he had learned. I garantee he would also say we do not do Aikido. So I don't know what's left that I must do to prove to you that we do not teach Aikido. I have posted information in the past to come to one of our seminars. No one from any of the boards I posted the information on shows up. So, if people won't even come to see, and feel then I guess they will never know, and will just have to keep conjuring what they want up in their minds.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings

No fightings some of were already banned here for a week a few months ago.

Anyway not to pick on Mike at all, I've never seen a Traditional HKD Dojang
with a picture of Ueyesba, not to say it doesn't exist.

Your teachers lineage suggests a very strong AKD connection that's a fact, Hapkido/Aikido mix is where I believe you suggest an Aikijujutsu flavor. We are spectulating based on lineage and what you have said.

Moreover that's no put down on your school or your teacher in anyway, it just is what it is.

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,

I agree with what your saying. I have already openly said that we do have SOME Aikido aspects. Mainly some redirections, and some pinning. But these other people(not you) are saying that our whole basis, and art is Aikido which it is not. See where I'm comming from?

 

[glad2bhere]

Well, I have to admit, per the title of this thread, what I am reading in the last several posts really DOES seem to be the "Basics of Hapkido". I have no doubt that the same sort of thing went on among Lee, Kim, Ji, Suh and Oh years ago and probably got us to where our last generation wound up. Nor do I suspect that whenever the identified "bad guy" is selected that there might ever be answer that might be made to challenges against him that would be ruled "acceptable".

Not so very long ago we had a flurry of activity on DD because the name "Hackworth" came up. Before that there was a flurry about a group out of Canada. Before that there was a flurry about a group in Europe (France? England?) And before that it was Hackworth and members of the KHF. Before that it was Pelligrini.

Now I have introduced some thoughts and views and I am lucky to get a handful of responses. Seems any time technical questions come up there are a few exchanges and then an invitation. But cast aspersions and everybody with a belly-button has an opinion, and you are up to your tail in posts. When I bump this behavior up against what I see over on AIKIDO JOURNAL Net or E-BUDO Net our exchanges seem down-right puerile. Makes it sorta hard to get up any farther into the building when we keep walking in the same circles down in the lobby, if you get my meaning. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Stuart,

I agree with what your saying. I have already openly said that we do have SOME Aikido aspects. Mainly some redirections, and some pinning. But these other people(not you) are saying that our whole basis, and art is Aikido which it is not. See where I'm comming from?

I see your point clearly.

For the record how much do you think AKD influenced your style of HKD and in what way?

 

[American HKD]

Well, I have to admit, per the title of this thread, what I am reading in the last several posts really DOES seem to be the "Basics of Hapkido". I have no doubt that the same sort of thing went on among Lee, Kim, Ji, Suh and Oh years ago and probably got us to where our last generation wound up. Nor do I suspect that whenever the identified "bad guy" is selected that there might ever be answer that might be made to challenges against him that would be ruled "acceptable".

Not so very long ago we had a flurry of activity on DD because the name "Hackworth" came up. Before that there was a flurry about a group out of Canada. Before that there was a flurry about a group in Europe (France? England?) And before that it was Hackworth and members of the KHF. Before that it was Pelligrini.

Now I have introduced some thoughts and views and I am lucky to get a handful of responses. Seems any time technical questions come up there are a few exchanges and then an invitation. But cast aspersions and everybody with a belly-button has an opinion, and you are up to your tail in posts. When I bump this behavior up against what I see over on AIKIDO JOURNAL Net or E-BUDO Net our exchanges seem down-right puerile. Makes it sorta hard to get up any farther into the building when we keep walking in the same circles down in the lobby, if you get my meaning. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Greetings

I know what you mean about the problem of discussing techniques.

I think it's very hard or impossible to explain technical aspects of HKD in this forum or any written forum. HKD techs. are very intricate, it's not like describing a lunge punch or front kick.

I believe that's why technical threads are hard to due, the chances of getting your point across is slim to none.

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,

For the record how much do you think AKD influenced your style of HKD and in what way?

I would have to say there is not too much Aikido in our Hapkido. I think how it hased influence the Hapkido, would simply be more Aiki. I have said before that what Ji learned from Choi was more along the lines of pure jutsu (yawara) but lacked aiki. I think that by GM Chang learning from Myung Jae-Nam it gave his style more aiki, or flow to the techniques. I have studied with a few people from Sin Moo, mainly red belts, or 1st Dan's. I will admit that the style is very good, but again I did not feel as much aiki as I do with our style. For instance- It seem with a redirection into a Kote Gaeshi (sorry for Japanese terminology) from what I have seen from alot of Hapkido schools is that instead of using a full circular spin from your feet to redirect, they would use more of like a half circle. If you can picture what I'm saying? Both ways are effective, but I think that not using the full circle it is using less of the aiki potential, and using more jutsu. This is just a small example but I hope it helps with your question.

 

[American HKD]

Stuart,

For the record how much do you think AKD influenced your style of HKD and in what way?

I would have to say there is not too much Aikido in our Hapkido. I think how it hased influence the Hapkido, would simply be more Aiki. I have said before that what Ji learned from Choi was more along the lines of pure jutsu (yawara) but lacked aiki. I think that by GM Chang learning from Myung Jae-Nam it gave his style more aiki, or flow to the techniques. I have studied with a few people from Sin Moo, mainly red belts, or 1st Dan's. I will admit that the style is very good, but again I did not feel as much aiki as I do with our style. For instance- It seem with a redirection into a Kote Gaeshi (sorry for Japanese terminology) from what I have seen from alot of Hapkido schools is that instead of using a full circular spin from your feet to redirect, they would use more of like a half circle. If you can picture what I'm saying? Both ways are effective, but I think that not using the full circle it is using less of the aiki potential, and using more jutsu. This is just a small example but I hope it helps with your question.

Dear Mike,

The Sin Moo style is a very strong and direct HKD style less circular than other HKD systems.

We use the whole body to amplify the techs making them very powerful, we are still non resistance and use circles but in many cases they are small and direct circles compared to large flowing circles as in AKD or some HKD styles.

Sin Moo is a very combat oriented style, Master Ji calls the system for killing not play or sparring.

 

[howard]

Chicagoland's ONLY AUTHENTIC HAPKIDO DOJANG

Mr Sogor, could you please explain to us exactly what this means?

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,

You said exactly what I was trying to say. Sin Moo is a very strong style, I definetely agree. And as you said it is less circular than some styles, which from what I've seen and felt. But I just want to clarify one thing. The term that I use full circle is totally different than large circle. I think this where we differ from Aikido. When I say full circle I just mean a complete 180 degree spin, to redirect the attack. Compared to a 60 degree or so spin, from other styles(inculding Sin Moo) from what I have seen. But just because it is a full 180 spin, does not mean it is large. Infact it is a very tight, intricate spin, to a fast execution of a technique. This is why I say we are closer to Aikijutsu, or Aikijujutsu. So basically the difference is in large circular movement, compared to what we do as a tight, fast circle. Hope that helps.

 

[Hollywood1340]

We all seem to be Authentic, but to everybody else

 

[Paul B]

Aww...forget it. :lol:

 

[iron_ox]

Mr Sogor, could you please explain to us exactly what this means?

What does it say?

 

[American HKD]

Stuart,

You said exactly what I was trying to say. Sin Moo is a very strong style, I definetely agree. And as you said it is less circular than some styles, which from what I've seen and felt. But I just want to clarify one thing. The term that I use full circle is totally different than large circle. I think this where we differ from Aikido. When I say full circle I just mean a complete 180 degree spin, to redirect the attack. Compared to a 60 degree or so spin, from other styles(inculding Sin Moo) from what I have seen. But just because it is a full 180 spin, does not mean it is large. Infact it is a very tight, intricate spin, to a fast execution of a technique. This is why I say we are closer to Aikijutsu, or Aikijujutsu. So basically the difference is in large circular movement, compared to what we do as a tight, fast circle. Hope that helps.

Understood

 

[howard]

What does it say?

That's what I'm asking you... so you are saying that there is no other "authentic" hapkido school in the Chicago metropolitan area?

What is your definition of "authentic" in this context?

 

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Dear Howard,

I think Kevin means a undiluted lineage traced directly to Choi Yong Sul.

However the truth is, no matter who claims what there's no way to substanciate that it is the exact unaltered version.

The only reason I say that is because each person is an individual and no two people can do anything exactly the same. Some variations are likey to accur no matter what.

In Ji Han Jae lineage there are many variations allsaying they teach "original Hapkido" yet no two are a exactly alike!

People naturally change or better yet adjust things to suit there own mind and body's needs. Maybe it's 99% the same, maybe it's only 80% or 90% the same.

We will never know for sure, we only know that GM Lim says it's the same and his students believe him

 

[howard]

Greetings,

Dear Howard,

I think Kevin means a undiluted lineage traced directly to Choi Yong Sul.

However the truth is, no matter who claims what there's no way to substanciate that it is the exact unaltered version.

The only reason I say that is because each person is an individual and no two people can do anything exactly the same. Some variations are likey to accur no matter what.

In Ji Han Jae lineage there are many variations allsaying they teach "original Hapkido" yet no two are a exactly alike!

People naturally change or better yet adjust things to suit there own mind and body's needs. Maybe it's 99% the same, maybe it's only 80% or 90% the same.

We will never know for sure, we only know that GM Lim says it's the same and his students believe him

Stuart, thanks. Nice post.

 

[iron_ox]

Greetings,

Dear Howard,

I think Kevin means a undiluted lineage traced directly to Choi Yong Sul.

However the truth is, no matter who claims what there's no way to substanciate that it is the exact unaltered version.

The only reason I say that is because each person is an individual and no two people can do anything exactly the same. Some variations are likey to accur no matter what.

In Ji Han Jae lineage there are many variations allsaying they teach "original Hapkido" yet no two are a exactly alike!

People naturally change or better yet adjust things to suit there own mind and body's needs. Maybe it's 99% the same, maybe it's only 80% or 90% the same.

We will never know for sure, we only know that GM Lim says it's the same and his students believe him

Hello all,
Stuart, nice post. Pretty close to nailing it.

In my original signature block, I simply stated that I was preserving original Hapkido for future generations. I meant just that. My "political" bend if you will is that Hapkido is the art originated by Dojunim Choi - this is what I have always been taught and this is my continued belief.

A problem I have always had is the use of Hapkido as a generic term to describe any and all throwing arts that someone devises in Korea or by a Korean, or with Korean flavor. I have pointed out a few here over time. Nowhere in that block does it say "mine is more authentic" - it just says authentic. Now as I have stated here, I will point out things I do not believe to be tracable back to Dojunim Choi - but frankly, if someone is happy learning something, I am not one to say that is inherently wrong - but maybe the use of the name Hapkido is. Lots of groups have also taken Hapkido as a base and call it something completely different, and as I see it, way to go - when you want to define yourself, good job. I thought that the block was innocuous - as Hollywood said here - we all see ourselves as Authentic in our eyes - so in all the places that both I and Stuart use this tag (not to drag you in this Stu) is this the one place it is complained about?

I rarely play the rank and time in card unless I have to - but a member here who is 11 years my junior in training time (not worried about wallpaper) seems obsessed with complaining about this signature block (the first one) - even though it is not directed at him - or anyone else for that matter. Since again, in the course of this thread, this junior member decided to complain yet again about this block, I decided that I should add a defining tag line to the block. I have discussed options with the moderators (including to my dismay MISSPELLING shesulsa's name - sorry again) and understanding their postion, decided that there is no need to directly comment to the babbling brook of misinformation - but rather define further what exactly I meant - particularly for the edification of that junior member.

Howard, for whatever your political agenda is, I am not a rash person. This addition was deliberate and thought out. As I am a firm believer in the Authenticity of the lineage of Dojunim Choi, and have always been taught that, I am just as conscience that Ji Han Jae and his adherants represent 90% of the world's Hapkido. That being said, I examined Chicago and its Hapkido. There is one instructor that has a fleeting past of connection directly to Dojunim Choi, but the instructor of this person left Hapkido to form his own thing - and the current instructor now does not teach, but imports grads from Yong-In university - which does not have a Hapkido program (so they are no longer teaching Hapkido actively). There are several offshoots of the Ji structure here, but they have all gone their own way and added forms, and other non-Hapkido elements - but to my knowledge, there is no one that is currently directly affiliated with Sin Moo at all in Chicago. Again, at least not with a dojang.

This use of dojang was also important because I know for a fact that their are Hapkido people in Chicago who have Ji lineage, but they do not teach or have dojangs. The junior member does not have a dojang, but a college program. Dojang to me is more than just a room you use a few hours a week, but a dedicated space where matial arts are practiced (to explain that definintion.)

For the record, although I am a proud member of the Jung Ki Kwan, I do not use that membership here to bolster my position. I may comment on those issues raised directly about Grandmaster Lim, but would not feel comfortable speaking for him, or standing on his "coattails" to further my position in any way - and if I ever did that, I should not have. There are several other members of the Jung Ki Kwan here on this board and in the US, and I would not want my belief or opinion to affect any efforts they may be making by assuming that we may all share the same opinions - because clearly we do not all share the same experience and background. I respect those other members enough to never openly challenge them without asking within channels if an open question will cause a problem for them in any way - and will continue with this belief.

Howard, what else do you want to know?