bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
True dat, as the kids say.
Agreed, but I also think it's unfortunate and limiting to dismiss other approaches as "not martial arts."
XMA - your feelings?
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Steve
Mostly Harmless
Okay. We agree that classes/sessions designed to improve communications skills would be effective self defense. But would you consider a management course on communications to be a martial art?
I'm trying to be specific, because I agree that we're having trouble getting through to each other. You seem to be a reasonable guy, so I'm sure we'll figure it out.
I have what I believe is a pretty broad definition of martial art. XMA and Wushu don't meet the criteria any more than a professional mediator could be considered a martial artist, even though it could be argued that a professional mediator would be better able to avoid getting mugged than many black belts in whatever style.
And unrelated to the above, it appears to me that you and I have some fundamental disagreements about MMA, what's involved in the training and the types of people who train.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
I think this is where we disagree. Mediation is neither martial nor art, by any but the most tenuous definition. XMA and Wushu are definitely art, and demonstrably martial....so I'm inclined to include them.
Maybe we're talking about two different things. I've done the MMA thing...and Muay thai before that. It's a fight sport. Not a whole lot of artistry in either (Ram Muay excepted), and some pretty serious limitations in street SD. On the other hand, not all BJJ is taught just for MMA competition, and is less limited.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Yep. This is it, then. Mediation is definitely an art. Or, at the very least, it's a discrete set of skills and techniques, that when coupled with experience can be used to effectively resolve conflict... and when done well is an artform for those who can appreciate it. I'd also say that XMA and Wushu are arts, too. None of them, in my opinion, are martial, because they don't impart any demonstrable martial skill. A skilled break dancer could emulate most of the moves done by an XMA or Wushu practitioner with very little practice.
Again, it's clear that we just simply disagree. You don't seem to have a lot of respect for MMA, which is fine. But I can tell you that the guys I know are very skilled and what they do is pretty damned artistic to me. They diligently train for combat at every range. They shore up weaknesses. Is it the one best answer for all self defense? Certainly not. It's a sport. But to say that it's impractical for street SD is nonsense. I've said before and I'll say again that if I could only choose one person to be around in a tense situation, he would have three traits, listed in order of importance (to me):
1: Not a douchebag.
2: Aware of surroundings.
3: Trained in a combat sport such as MMA.
Again, it gets dicey when we start talking about Self Defense, because most schools don't teach it. They teach other things, many you've already mentioned. It could be fitness. It could be how to fight, or historical/cultural preservation. What most don't teach is situational awareness, conflict avoidance and conflict resolution.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
What? You mean how MMA was invented by Dana White and the Fertita brothers over a steak dinner at the MGM Grand Casino?
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Don't get me wrong. I think if anything I've demonstrated through this post that I have respect for all martial arts. Like I said, I was an MMA fighter before people called it MMA (remember "shoot fighting" and "catch wrestling"?)
Is an MMA guy at an advantage over a mook in a bar fight? Absolutely. At an advantage over a similarly conditioned guy who's spent exactly as much time studying Krav Maga? Not hardly. Better than a TKD guy? Likely -- unless he gets off a lucky shot while MMA is closing the range. He'd get a good run from a well-conditioned kenpo guy, but would walk all over a guy from one of those "fat" kenpo schools who don't work their attributes.
Bottom line for me is choice of art is far, far (did I mention far) less important than student dedication and quality instruction.
If you forced me to draw a "self defense skill" continuum with XMA and Tai Chi for Seniors at one end and the actual Krav they teach the IDF at the other, I'd put MMA near the hugh middle...alongside Systema and the better Kenpo.
However. If you account for the raw power and incredible condition a competitive MMA fighter is in, that fighter rockets to the "holy crap" end of the scale. But that's about the athlete, not the art (unless you count the fitness culture surrounding MMA, which would be reasonable).
Is an MMA guy at an advantage over a mook in a bar fight? Absolutely. At an advantage over a similarly conditioned guy who's spent exactly as much time studying Krav Maga? Not hardly. Better than a TKD guy? Likely -- unless he gets off a lucky shot while MMA is closing the range. He'd get a good run from a well-conditioned kenpo guy, but would walk all over a guy from one of those "fat" kenpo schools who don't work their attributes.
Bottom line for me is choice of art is far, far (did I mention far) less important than student dedication and quality instruction.
If you forced me to draw a "self defense skill" continuum with XMA and Tai Chi for Seniors at one end and the actual Krav they teach the IDF at the other, I'd put MMA near the hugh middle...alongside Systema and the better Kenpo.
However. If you account for the raw power and incredible condition a competitive MMA fighter is in, that fighter rockets to the "holy crap" end of the scale. But that's about the athlete, not the art (unless you count the fitness culture surrounding MMA, which would be reasonable).
Ok... but wait... what's that swishing sound in the background?? I know...
Doh... the 2x4 of truth swings again for contact!
OOOOh Steve!
When on here we talk about MMA fighters everyone seems to mean the pro fighters one sees on the top promotions however the vast majority are amateur even if they fight pro rules. These are good martial artists who have usually come from a traditional style and who also maintain their SD skills. Many of these people who are attracted to MMA come from careers or backgrounds where SD/fighting is fairly normal. As I said before many of our students are soldiers will fight quite happily when out for the night even though they shouldn't. We also have two travellers with their long tradition of bare knuckle fights and persecution which often ends up in fights.
Our instructor who has BB in Shotokan and Judo (he's ex army and has had the oppotunity to train a few styles) is now a close protection officer and does the doors in one of our more 'interesting' cities. All other coaches/instructors I know come from a TMA background usually full contact and SD based.
I think we need to differentiate between those MMA fighters we see on TV and those who train MMA as their martial art competing occassionally as and when they can.
When on here we talk about MMA fighters everyone seems to mean the pro fighters one sees on the top promotions however the vast majority are amateur even if they fight pro rules. These are good martial artists who have usually come from a traditional style and who also maintain their SD skills. Many of these people who are attracted to MMA come from careers or backgrounds where SD/fighting is fairly normal. As I said before many of our students are soldiers will fight quite happily when out for the night even though they shouldn't. We also have two travellers with their long tradition of bare knuckle fights and persecution which often ends up in fights.
Our instructor who has BB in Shotokan and Judo (he's ex army and has had the oppotunity to train a few styles) is now a close protection officer and does the doors in one of our more 'interesting' cities. All other coaches/instructors I know come from a TMA background usually full contact and SD based.
I think we need to differentiate between those MMA fighters we see on TV and those who train MMA as their martial art competing occassionally as and when they can.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
Plz tell me more. Does the training include concepts and techniques illegal in competition?
I hear what you're saying, but a soldier or traveler coming to a dojo with existing defense skills isn't quite the same as saying the dojo teaches good self defense.....once again, it sounds like support for "it's not the art, it's the student"
To be clear...not trying to knock MMA down. Just pointing out that MMA's not the only tall guy in the room.
You said however that MMA is only good because of it's proponents fitness!
Yes we teach moves that would be illegal in competition, as do many martial artists. It really isn't that hard to know when to abide by the rules and when not to. We teach martial arts to many soldiers who have never done martial arts before. The travellers heritage includes bareknuckle fighting, they may or may not fight, many don't. We are a martial arts club and have fighters who compete in MMA, it really isn't difficult. I know a karateka, Neil Grove who competes in MMA, he doesn't find it difficult either to adjust to competing, self defence and even kata.
I mentioned the squaddies and travellers to point out that MMA fighters can defend themselves and aren't stuck in the 'rules' mindset, not to show they fight anyway. Martial artists for donkey's years have been learning self defence and also competing under rules, why all of a sudden are MMA fighters deemed unable to do this?
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
You misunderstood -- or I failed to communicate well. I said fitness was his primary advantage. Fitness and conditioning are what makes a MMA fighter (training for competition) a more dangerous opponent than, say, the average Systema or kenpo guy...both of whom receive training that's arguably more specialized for a street fight.
And the real point of my original post was, since MMA tends to be about martial rather than art (like most fight sports), why is it somehow "more of a martial art" than a style that tends to be more about the art than the martial?
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
But the word "art" is there as well. To my way of thinking, a Tai Chi practitioner is exactly as justified in calling MMA "not a martial art" because of its lack of kata, meditation, or healing training as a Mixed Martial Artist is justified in excluding Wushu for its lack of real combat application.
But -- and I could be wrong about your school in particular -- my experience with MMA schools (which includes training at several, helping organize events and journalism in the field) says most of your training in sport-oriented. It's not as though the people who don't choose to fight have a special class that emphasizes the artistic aspects of the many traditional martial arts that contribute to MMA. You train for the ring.
Which gets me back to my point. What makes you believe the "martial" deserves more respect than the "art?" Or more importantly, why does it seem so important to so many martial artists (on both sides of the fence) to exclude a certain segment of our already too-small brotherhood?
Nothing makes me believe anything tbh, I wasn't arguing for or against anything. My point is only about MMA. You'll have to find one of the others who was arguing about it, I was just throwing in a suggestion, I don't know for sure why people think about MA the way they do.
I've noticed before and many over this side of the pond who have fought and or training in the States agree with me that MMA concepts and training seem different here than in the US. We train to fight full stop.
It may be that we don't have the wrestling background that you find in the States and we rely heavily on TMA's, I don't know.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
That's an interesting point. Does MMA training in Blighty include more artistic approaches? Or is your point that MMA over there means something different from the largely sport-oriented MMA schools over here? In the same way that calling someone a "*****" over there is a compliment?
LOL, the 'compliment' depends on which part of the country you come from!
I think it's because we don't have that wrestling background which is very much a sporting one we have all come from traditional styles and keep that flavour in our training. That and the fact there's no money in MMA here, not in training fighters nor in competing. There's not really money in any martial arts here, we don't have the huge schools, there simply aren't enough people to support that. Another important thing is that our influences came from Pride in Japan rather than the UFC. We certainly had fighters and shows here predating UFC, (nod to Steve here...though the UFC put the 'wow factor and money into MMA) While it is 'sporting' and certainly competitive, people see themselves as martial artists, it's the next step after the full contact karate and the Judo comps.
The quickest way to wind people up here who do MMA is to call the a 'cage fighter'.
It could also be that being British we do things a little differently not to say eccentrically!
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
That's very interesting. Thank you.
In Chinese and Japanese the words for martial arts are 'wushu' and 'bujutsu'.
The first character wu (chinese) and bu (Japanese) translate to 'martial', 'war', 'fighting', 'combat' etc.
The second shu(chinese) jutsu (japanese) translate to 'techniques', 'methods' etc.
The 'art' thing in English, really throws it in a different direction and makes things confusing. All of the previous systems, styles or whatever you wanna call them, can be included in the umbrella term of martial arts.
The first character wu (chinese) and bu (Japanese) translate to 'martial', 'war', 'fighting', 'combat' etc.
The second shu(chinese) jutsu (japanese) translate to 'techniques', 'methods' etc.
The 'art' thing in English, really throws it in a different direction and makes things confusing. All of the previous systems, styles or whatever you wanna call them, can be included in the umbrella term of martial arts.
