Would this work?

[drop bear]

Then what? You kicked him you grabbed the gun but he's still coming toward you? What do you do next?

it is still a hypothetical.

are you going to engage in a fantasy off?

fine. I have the gun. He comes at me i pull the trigger and a flag comes out with the word bang.

we both have a laugh and eat ice cream.

 

[K-man]

it is still a hypothetical.

are you going to engage in a fantasy off?

fine. I have the gun. He comes at me i pull the trigger and a flag comes out with the word bang.

we both have a laugh and eat ice cream.

All scenario based training is hypothetical. What point are you making? Are you saying this type of training is flawed?

 

[ballen0351]

it is still a hypothetical.

are you going to engage in a fantasy off?

fine. I have the gun. He comes at me i pull the trigger and a flag comes out with the word bang.

we both have a laugh and eat ice cream.

Well maybe in your world as a mall security guard at a shopping center this type of thing wont happen but for some this is a reality. Id like to hear how hes going to fight now with a gun in his hand. Thats what you need to think about when you go for the gun. Now one hand is holding a gun so your going to have to fight one handed or try to put the gun some place. Thats something I teach police recruits. You draw your weapon but now you dont have a deadly force situation or you cant shoot for other reasons now what do you do? If its your gun you can holster it up if not then what?

 

[Transk53]

All scenario based training is hypothetical. What point are you making? Are you saying this type of training is flawed?

Do you in the context of the thread? We have different scenario training based on actual 999 incidents that we as a security team have dealt with.

 

[Hanzou]

But exactly where did you say anything about kicking him in the face, letting him roll ten feet and grabbing the gun? I've reread the thread three times and missed it each time.

Like I said, I don't buy the idea that this is actually defense against a downed opponent going for a gun. If it were, you wouldn't kick the guy in the throat, and then chase his rolling body down and continue to beat on him. You would kick him in the throat and go for the gun.

If you really buy that this is a legitimate defense against a person reaching for the gun, then please explain the point of the chest stomp and the neck crank?

If that followup is something to do against an unarmed assailant, then that followup is still ridiculous, because the kick, stomp, and crank are pretty unreliable methods to disable someone. Maybe if you're as big as Tony they're not, but someone smaller? Good luck cranking a bigger guy's neck like that, even if they're laying on their back.

 

[Hanzou]

Then what? You kicked him you grabbed the gun but he's still coming toward you? What do you do next?

Aren't we going on the notion that the kick was some sort of super-kick that has made this guy completely incapacitated to the point where I can walk over to him and stomp him in the chest, and then proceed to neck crank him with no resistance whatsoever? Or are we back in the real world where that kick to the throat probably did little damage, and as you say he's now coming toward me as I aim the gun at him?

If its the former, I'll have enough time to point the gun at him and call the cops. If its the (far more likely) latter scenario, I'd probably shoot and worry about the legal ramifications later.

 

[ballen0351]

Aren't we going on the notion that the kick was some sort of super-kick that has made this guy completely incapacitated to the point where I can walk over to him and stomp him in the chest, and then proceed to neck crank him with no resistance whatsoever? Or are we back in the real world where that kick to the throat probably did little damage, and as you say he's now coming toward me as I aim the gun at him?

If its the former, I'll have enough time to point the gun at him and call the cops. If its the (far more likely) latter scenario, I'd probably shoot and worry about the legal ramifications later.

I think that's the point of the follow up attacks neck crank or chest stomp. I don't see it as you mst follow the steps a then b then c. More the point of kick the neck or face or ribs or whatever and then follow up with more attacks until you have stopped the threat. I'm sure there are other ways besides this. If you were in the situation what would your BJJ response be? There are many ways to skin a cat. I'd just shoot the dude but I always have a gun on me.

 

[Hanzou]

I think that's the point of the follow up attacks neck crank or chest stomp. I don't see it as you mst follow the steps a then b then c. More the point of kick the neck or face or ribs or whatever and then follow up with more attacks until you have stopped the threat. I'm sure there are other ways besides this. If you were in the situation what would your BJJ response be? There are many ways to skin a cat. I'd just shoot the dude but I always have a gun on me.

If the guy is on all fours and unarmed, I'm going to choke him out. Only way to be sure. Ironically, the assailant laying on his back is more dangerous than him on all fours.

If he's reaching for a gun, I'd probably do what Tony did and kick him, (except with a soccer kick to the head or face, not a throat kick) as hard as I can, and then go for the gun. Like I said, if he's still coming at me at that point, I'm shooting him.

 

[drop bear]

All scenario based training is hypothetical. What point are you making? Are you saying this type of training is flawed?

this type of argument is flawed. All training is flawed.

 

[drop bear]

Well maybe in your world as a mall security guard at a shopping center this type of thing wont happen but for some this is a reality. Id like to hear how hes going to fight now with a gun in his hand. Thats what you need to think about when you go for the gun. Now one hand is holding a gun so your going to have to fight one handed or try to put the gun some place. Thats something I teach police recruits. You draw your weapon but now you dont have a deadly force situation or you cant shoot for other reasons now what do you do? If its your gun you can holster it up if not then what?

any way he wants. Because he can make the rest of the scenario up.
because it is hypothetical.

 

[drop bear]

All scenario based training is hypothetical. What point are you making? Are you saying this type of training is flawed?

and of course this training specifically. Where we are kicking people in to back flips so you can jump on there chest is flawed.

 

[ballen0351]

any way he wants. Because he can make the rest of the scenario up.
because it is hypothetical.

So how would you handle it?

 

[ballen0351]

this type of argument is flawed. All training is flawed.

So why train at all?

 

[Steve]

So why train at all?

this scenario may be unrealistic, but that doesn't mean all are. But the real point, I think, is that everyone should remember that training cannot make you a functional expert, tegardless of the quality of the training. Nothing can replace experience. All training can only get you so far.

Then what? You kicked him you grabbed the gun but he's still coming toward you? What do you do next?

You'd shoot him? If I had his gun, and genuinely feared for my life, I think i would, too.

Do you in the context of the thread? We have different scenario training based on actual 999 incidents

i thought you guys changed the number to something easier to remember: 0118 999 88199 9119 725 3.

 

[Transk53]

@Steve. My phone is a nightmare to qoute on. Don't forget we over do everything lol

 

[K-man]

Do you in the context of the thread? We have different scenario training based on actual 999 incidents that we as a security team have dealt with.

I am just commenting on Tony Blaur's scenario. I think it is as likely as any other in the struggle for control of a weapon. By all means base scenario training on actual incidents but as every situation is different, the training is still hypothetical. I don't have any issue with that at all.

 

[Transk53]

I am just commenting on Tony Blaur's scenario. I think it is as likely as any other in the struggle for control of a weapon. By all means base scenario training on actual incidents but as every situation is different, the training is still hypothetical. I don't have any issue with that at all.

Yeah see what you mean now Oh at least our live fire evac the other day means we do not have train now until next year. Scenario training is a bit patchy, especially when you know it is. I much prefer the situation when it is unannounced. The former lack fluidity IMHO. More practical over theory kind of thing.

 

[Steve]

@Transk53 cool new feature... You can tag users now. Neat.

 

[Transk53]

@Transk53 cool new feature... You can tag users now. Neat.

Crikey, I can just about tag a picture on Facebook lol.

 

[Transk53]

Yeah I found that one out when I put confused.com lol