Ridge-of-foot roundhouse kicks, how wrong are they, really?

[skribs]

Ever since I started holding pads, I've been on students about not turning over their roundhouse kicks. They'll kick the pad with the ridge of their foot, knee pointed more up than in. I could always tell just by the way it felt on the pad whether it was a ridge kick or an instep kick, and every time I'd get on them about not turning their kicks over. To be clear, it's the corner of the ridge, not the flat of it.

I've recently started Muay Thai, and one of the kicks we do is a diagonal roundhouse kick where we aim to hit with the inside edge of the shinbone instead of the front of it. My coach says to think of it like cutting someone diagonally from hip to shoulder. This kick reminds me very much of a roundhouse kick with the ridge of the foot, it's just that the Muay Thai kick is half a foot higher on the leg.

I've been playing around with ridge kicks and it seems like a faster kick. I've sprained my ankle on hard instep kicks a couple of times, and I think it's less likely hitting diagonally. I don't think it's as good looking or as strong, but I'm thinking it's one of those things that "just works". Maybe the type of thing that when you know the rule (turn over your kick), you know when to break it.

 

[HighKick]

Ever since I started holding pads, I've been on students about not turning over their roundhouse kicks. They'll kick the pad with the ridge of their foot, knee pointed more up than in. I could always tell just by the way it felt on the pad whether it was a ridge kick or an instep kick, and every time I'd get on them about not turning their kicks over. To be clear, it's the corner of the ridge, not the flat of it.

I've recently started Muay Thai, and one of the kicks we do is a diagonal roundhouse kick where we aim to hit with the inside edge of the shinbone instead of the front of it. My coach says to think of it like cutting someone diagonally from hip to shoulder. This kick reminds me very much of a roundhouse kick with the ridge of the foot, it's just that the Muay Thai kick is half a foot higher on the leg.

I've been playing around with ridge kicks and it seems like a faster kick. I've sprained my ankle on hard instep kicks a couple of times, and I think it's less likely hitting diagonally. I don't think it's as good looking or as strong, but I'm thinking it's one of those things that "just works". Maybe the type of thing that when you know the rule (turn over your kick), you know when to break it.

I hope I can explain this in a way that makes sense. I always think of MT kicks as a tool that make contact sooner or quicker. They may not finish with the same power or velocity as a classic TKD kick but make impact sooner. There is also a difference in the 'density' of the kick since you are hitting with a (usually) larger area (shin vs top or ball of foot).
I think the MT kick is superior for mid-level kicks and even high kicks for people with superior flexibility when you want to return the kick. But there are times a TKD style kick makes more sense, especially when moving forward post-kick.
Are you learning to pivot the standing foot at all in MT? The little bit I have dabbled in it I was told not to pivot, and it always felt very hard on the knees.

 

[skribs]

I hope I can explain this in a way that makes sense. I always think of MT kicks as a tool that make contact sooner or quicker. They may not finish with the same power or velocity as a classic TKD kick but make impact sooner. There is also a difference in the 'density' of the kick since you are hitting with a (usually) larger area (shin vs top or ball of foot).
I think the MT kick is superior for mid-level kicks and even high kicks for people with superior flexibility when you want to return the kick. But there are times a TKD style kick makes more sense, especially when moving forward post-kick.
Are you learning to pivot the standing foot at all in MT? The little bit I have dabbled in it I was told not to pivot, and it always felt very hard on the knees.

Yeah, we pivot.

Ironically, I also went to a very mcdojo TKD school recently, but they taught what I would think of as a more muay thai style of roundhouse.

And the MT class (run by a coach who has coached ringside for pro MMA fighters) has a lot of TMA style kicks. It's very weird.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I hope I can explain this in a way that makes sense. I always think of MT kicks as a tool that make contact sooner or quicker. They may not finish with the same power or velocity as a classic TKD kick but make impact sooner. There is also a difference in the 'density' of the kick since you are hitting with a (usually) larger area (shin vs top or ball of foot).
I think the MT kick is superior for mid-level kicks and even high kicks for people with superior flexibility when you want to return the kick. But there are times a TKD style kick makes more sense, especially when moving forward post-kick.
Are you learning to pivot the standing foot at all in MT? The little bit I have dabbled in it I was told not to pivot, and it always felt very hard on the knees.

This is an important nuance but the standing leg pivot is NOT supposed to stay rooted to the ground, which is how you can torque your knee.

There should be a subtle drop step with the standing leg, and that little hop is what makes MT roundhouses rock the bell. Granted, there is nothing stopping you from keeping your standing leg planted on the ground, but AFAIK, the kick will be more powerful and easier on the standing knee if you just do that little skip step.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is an important nuance but the standing leg pivot is NOT supposed to stay rooted to the ground, which is how you can torque your knee.

Agree! The rooting leg should always pivot with body rotation.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Are you learning to pivot the standing foot at all in MT? The little bit I have dabbled in it I was told not to pivot, and it always felt very hard on the knees.

The only kick where I don't pivot is when I step into the kick. Instead of pivot during the kick the "pivot" foot placement occurs before the kick instead of during the kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The only kick where I don't pivot is when I step into the kick. Instead of pivot during the kick the "pivot" foot placement occurs before the kick instead of during the kick.

Examples of pivot during the kick. It's your knee. You need to know how to protect it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Examples of pivot during the kick. It's your knee. You need to know how to protect it.

The second clip is how I do it. Step into the turn. This way the knee doesn't have to deal with that twisting force. In short, the foot of my standing leg points in the direction of my twist. If I twist to the left, then my standing foot points left then my body twists.

Training on concrete and carpet pretty much makes this a mandatory technique. Any surface with significant grip will damage the knee especially if the joints in the knee aren't conditioned.

Slippery surfaces allow pets get away with things that aren't necessarily good on the average surface. Same with loose dirt.

 

[marvin8]

Gabriel Varga
Apr 27, 2021

There are so many styles of round kicks. Taekwondo snap style, karate with some more power...but then there's the muay thai round kick. Brutal power but somehow a beautiful finesse to it. Today we look a 3 defining factors to this masterful kick.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Gabriel Varga
Apr 27, 2021

There are so many styles of round kicks. Taekwondo snap style, karate with some more power...but then there's the muay thai round kick. Brutal power but somehow a beautiful finesse to it. Today we look a 3 defining factors to this masterful kick.

That was a perfect demo of the MT roundhouse hop step. At the elite level like him, he's able to keep the ball of his foot attached while lifting the rest of the foot for a nice, greasy pivot. It really takes some practice to do that without actually leaving the floor

 

[Fungus]

Ever since I started holding pads, I've been on students about not turning over their roundhouse kicks. They'll kick the pad with the ridge of their foot, knee pointed more up than in. I could always tell just by the way it felt on the pad whether it was a ridge kick or an instep kick, and every time I'd get on them about not turning their kicks over. To be clear, it's the corner of the ridge, not the flat of it.

I've recently started Muay Thai, and one of the kicks we do is a diagonal roundhouse kick where we aim to hit with the inside edge of the shinbone instead of the front of it. My coach says to think of it like cutting someone diagonally from hip to shoulder. This kick reminds me very much of a roundhouse kick with the ridge of the foot, it's just that the Muay Thai kick is half a foot higher on the leg.

I've been playing around with ridge kicks and it seems like a faster kick. I've sprained my ankle on hard instep kicks a couple of times, and I think it's less likely hitting diagonally. I don't think it's as good looking or as strong, but I'm thinking it's one of those things that "just works". Maybe the type of thing that when you know the rule (turn over your kick), you know when to break it.

As a beginner that has some jammed nerve issues in one leg, I have experimented with on heavy bag to get maximum power, and the advantage of a 45 degree up kick vs horizontal is that I find it easier to put your body weight into the kick, and the grounding foot can back it up easily. A pure horizontal kick to me as a beginner at least, feels like relying mainly on the snap and whip or the leg and hip, and the backing leg needs to rely more on friction; in contrast to putting your body mass into the kick, which I think they do more in muy thai? For example, to kick someone in the liver or spleen, a 45 diagonal kick (where you kick tkrough, and not pull back) should intuitively be able to deliver more energy than a snappy horizontal kick?

For head kick OTOH, I guess horizontal is better, given that you have the required flexibility and mobility - which not everyone has. I do not!

Or I am analysing it wrong? Would like to hear from those more experienced. Understanding the pros a nd cons of all the different versions are the fun part.

Also from own limited experience, kicking pads and kicking heavy bag gives very different feedback. When kick a pad, you get no resistance, so anything goes, and you may thinkg it works. But kicking hard (giving all you've got) against resistance like heavy have with wrong angle feels in your knees. Even the beginner quickly realizes this that hard way. so what works for kicking something out of the opponents hand, but not for body kicks.

(I do kyokushin however, not tkd, but that probably doesnt matter)