Women Self Defence!

[hoshin1600]

Hoshin is expressing his frustration about an approach to posting here (this site, not this thread). When the topic of women's SD or sexual assault comes up, we often get a series of posts about what's not effective about MA training. Most of us acknowledge MA training isn't going to cover everything - we'd love to hear at least some conceptual suggestions about what we could consider adding. I don't have the expertise to construct an answer to that question, but I believe some of those who post complaints about MA for women do actually have some of that expertise. I'd love to learn from them - and I think that's what Hoshin is saying, too.

Yes spot on.
using MT members as whipping posts does not help anyone.
think about the fact that a large majority of members here are instructors, educators in the field of self protection. each instructor may have 5 to maybe 100"s of students. we can also add the non members who just read the posts and those who will read these threads some time in the future. we can extrapolate that out and it has the potential of having an impact on thousands of women.
think about that for a moment.

isnt it better to be productive and inform people.

 

[hoshin1600]

That cognitive dissonance can also lead to an odd reluctance to cause harm to someone who is causing you harm.

this is a good point.
i am sure you understand that what i am pointing out is that known or unknown can be a distraction and an incorrect metric. it is more important how the incident manifests itself or i could say the MO of the attacker.
so as a statistical metric known- unknown has no fuction for a MA, but the perpetrator MO does. there would be a correlation between the two but as a strict metric known -unknown doesnt work so well.

 

[Tez3]

I was going to post but really do not feel like trying to explain yet again.

When the topic of women's SD or sexual assault comes up, we often get a series of posts about what's not effective about MA training. Most of us acknowledge MA training isn't going to cover everything - we'd love to hear at least some conceptual suggestions about what we could consider adding.

I have posted several times over the years ways to enhance training for women however they are always shot down. I'm told that self defence training is the same for everyone, there's no difference between men and women when being attacked etc. I'm tired of trying to explain that women are different, face different problems and yes sexual violence in the workplace is prevalent, sexual harassment is prevalent in all walks of life, yes I do understand men get sexually harassed as well, that most women however good a martial artist they are find it difficult to defeat a large man intent on violence, yes some women do fight off rapists, fighting is not always the answer, telling women to wear modest clothing and not to go out at night on their own is not helpful advice. Looking at statistics is fine but ask women about sexual assault ( especially in the workplace, ask a waitress how many times they've had their backsides pinched or patted) and listen when they tell you.

 

[hoshin1600]

I was going to post but really do not feel like trying to explain yet again.

I have posted several times over the years ways to enhance training for women however they are always shot down

im sorry that you feel that your "shot down". maybe some of these posts were made prior to my being here, but my impression is that anytime this subject comes up it is not constructive. i feel like we are being hammered on the head with a mallet that says "rape culture' on it. it has to me a somewhat accusational tone. that "we" are the problem.
maybe in a way we are, but as educators of MA we are doing the best we can. in order to do better we need information and guidance. we need dialog to help better our programs, to nudge us to rethink beliefs. i have heard you say many times that women should be teaching SD4W courses. agreed, but you can only work with what you got and until martial arts schools are run by more women the best we can do is teach men to do a better job of it. the alternative would be no one teaching anything.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was going to post but really do not feel like trying to explain yet again.



I have posted several times over the years ways to enhance training for women however they are always shot down. I'm told that self defence training is the same for everyone, there's no difference between men and women when being attacked etc. I'm tired of trying to explain that women are different, face different problems and yes sexual violence in the workplace is prevalent, sexual harassment is prevalent in all walks of life, yes I do understand men get sexually harassed as well, that most women however good a martial artist they are find it difficult to defeat a large man intent on violence, yes some women do fight off rapists, fighting is not always the answer, telling women to wear modest clothing and not to go out at night on their own is not helpful advice. Looking at statistics is fine but ask women about sexual assault ( especially in the workplace, ask a waitress how many times they've had their backsides pinched or patted) and listen when they tell you.

That's all either advice about what NOT to do (don't treat them the same, don't give that advice, etc.), or to ask about incidence and listen. None of that gives me any inclination on whether there's something I could do to improve anything I teach. I believe you have knowledge that would be helpful, and this post suggests you believe that, as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

im sorry that you feel that your "shot down". maybe some of these posts were made prior to my being here, but my impression is that anytime this subject comes up it is not constructive. i feel like we are being hammered on the head with a mallet that says "rape culture' on it. it has to me a somewhat accusational tone. that "we" are the problem.
maybe in a way we are, but as educators of MA we are doing the best we can. in order to do better we need information and guidance. we need dialog to help better our programs, to nudge us to rethink beliefs. i have heard you say many times that women should be teaching SD4W courses. agreed, but you can only work with what you got and until martial arts schools are run by more women the best we can do is teach men to do a better job of it. the alternative would be no one teaching anything.

I don't actually agree with the idea that only women should teach SD4W courses, any more than I believe only men can teach SD4M. I do believe there's value in having more women's voices in developing that training. And there's probably wisdom in having more women teaching both men and women how to teach. And I do believe there's value in the safety many women will feel in a learning atmosphere led by a woman - especially when topics like sexual assault are addressed. But let's not write off men who would like to contribute to the solution from that angle.

 

[Tez3]

im sorry that you feel that your "shot down". maybe some of these posts were made prior to my being here, but my impression is that anytime this subject comes up it is not constructive. i feel like we are being hammered on the head with a mallet that says "rape culture' on it. it has to me a somewhat accusational tone. that "we" are the problem.
maybe in a way we are, but as educators of MA we are doing the best we can. in order to do better we need information and guidance. we need dialog to help better our programs, to nudge us to rethink beliefs. i have heard you say many times that women should be teaching SD4W courses. agreed, but you can only work with what you got and until martial arts schools are run by more women the best we can do is teach men to do a better job of it. the alternative would be no one teaching anything.

I have tried to stay away from the blaming men part though in truth there is a lot that could be done in education and parenting to combat the lack of respect for women's bodies. The recent gymnastics doctor's trial, the show business revelations as well as the political ones are starting to make an impact on how bad workplace harassment and assault is. It's a problem society will have to resolve, it will take all of us. One part of that is what we do in Girl Guiding, we work with the girls ( it's a world wide campaign) to educate others and lobby government. Campaign to end sexual harassment in schools

Attacks on women come in different 'sections' for want of a better word.
1. the stranger attack/rape in a place away from home/workplace.
2. the stranger attack in a home/workplace such as a shop ie during a burglary often non sexual
3. systematic abuse by a family member/friend, sexual and/or physical
4. systematic abuse by a partner as above can be sexual or physical or both.
5. random sexual assault by a stranger while on public transport/shop/in public/or while working in a service job like waitress/housekeeping in hotels/stewardess type job.
6. random sexual assault by a co worker/boss etc

Martial arts has to decide which of these scenarios they are best suited to help with. Teaching any abused partner to fight is mostly likely not going to work, what about the other situations?

We also have to face the fact that fighting isn't always going to be the best solution to being attacked, that a woman is often best using her instincts and going with what works for her to come out of the situation with the least damage. I have said this before but again been shot down because people believe you must fight back, even judges and juries can believe this 'she didn't fight back so it wasn't rape she must have wanted it'. sometimes, hard as it is to think about, the least resistance is the best way. I'm not advocating not fighting as some have accused me of before, I'm advocating giving women as many tools as possible and telling them that using their gut instincts on how to deal with a situation is their best defence. If goes against most male martial arts not to fight, I've seen others write on here that if asked by a mugger with a weapon for their wallet they will give it up and others have had a go at them 'but you are a martial artist you must fight', even against a gun or knife.

 

[Tez3]

That's all either advice about what NOT to do (don't treat them the same, don't give that advice, etc.), or to ask about incidence and listen. None of that gives me any inclination on whether there's something I could do to improve anything I teach. I believe you have knowledge that would be helpful, and this post suggests you believe that, as well.

In this thread I posted several pieces about training with women.

 

[AlexanderZousky]

I am not a woman but before you go on and search for an effective martial art, you should know that the martial art is only effective if the person has the passion of learning it.

 

[Michele123]

I am a woman. In my late teens I used to help lead self defense classes for women. It was the female black belts of our school that taught these classes. Our Sensei was a man and only ever came towards the end of the class, all padded up, for the women to practice hitting/kicking/punching and so forth. It was fun.

Someone earlier mentioned that MA won’t help someone in a domestic abuse situation. I disagree. One of my friends and classmates in karate back in my teens, was being abused. She never fought back physically, but the self-confidence she learned in MA led her to finally leaving her abuser.

I think, perhaps, that self-confidence might be a key to self-defense. If I am correct, then maybe that is an angle to work on in classes? In our WSD classes, we would include information on domestic abuse shelters as well as descriptions and examples of the different sorts of domestic abuse. A lot of women in these situations don’t even realize they are being domestically abused. They tend to think they deserve it somehow. (Part of the grooming I think).

Anyhow, my $0.02


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[Gerry Seymour]

I am a woman. In my late teens I used to help lead self defense classes for women. It was the female black belts of our school that taught these classes. Our Sensei was a man and only ever came towards the end of the class, all padded up, for the women to practice hitting/kicking/punching and so forth. It was fun.

Someone earlier mentioned that MA won’t help someone in a domestic abuse situation. I disagree. One of my friends and classmates in karate back in my teens, was being abused. She never fought back physically, but the self-confidence she learned in MA led her to finally leaving her abuser.

I think, perhaps, that self-confidence might be a key to self-defense. If I am correct, then maybe that is an angle to work on in classes? In our WSD classes, we would include information on domestic abuse shelters as well as descriptions and examples of the different sorts of domestic abuse. A lot of women in these situations don’t even realize they are being domestically abused. They tend to think they deserve it somehow. (Part of the grooming I think).

Anyhow, my $0.02


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know how anyone would ever produce valid statistics to either support or disprove the notion, but I firmly believe the confidence and self-esteem people often develop in martial arts is the most important SD tool they receive.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I think, perhaps, that self-confidence might be a key to self-defense. If I am correct, then maybe that is an angle to work on in classes? In our WSD classes, we would include information on domestic abuse shelters as well as descriptions and examples of the different sorts of domestic abuse. A lot of women in these situations don’t even realize they are being domestically abused. They tend to think they deserve it somehow. (Part of the grooming I think).

I like that. This keeps coming up - that just the study of techniques is not the end-all-be-all. There has to be a psychological element built into the training as well.

 

[kravmaga1]

I am gay and just need someone to give me some attention. I love MMA Guys!

Before posting anything you should have seen what topic related we are discussing here. It is not a dating forum site.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

I don't know how anyone would ever produce valid statistics to either support or disprove the notion, but I firmly believe the confidence and self-esteem people often develop in martial arts is the most important SD tool they receive.

I agree, along with the ability to say "no" to someone. I met a young woman recently who literally couldn't say no. When in a group she always did whatever the rest of the group wanted, and when asked what she wanted to do her reply was always "whatever you want". This worried me and made me wonder what would happen if she was approached by someone looking to abuse her in some way. Would she be able to say "no" to that person before it was too late.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Speaking solely for myself, without any implication all other women should do as I do, I will take the training wherever I can get it from whomever I can get it. If there are no female self-defense instructors in the area, I'll train under male. I'd rather make some progress and learn to adapt what I have picked up to my own unique needs than sit and wait for just the right instructor to come along - with the right gender, the right attitude, and the right knowledge scope.

We don't select cardiologists solely out of the ranks of those who'd had a heart attack because we think they'll be able to better relate to the heart patients. We don't select oncologists only on the basis of whether or not they themselves had cancer. There are plenty of female urologists and male OBGYNs (incidentally, my favorite OBGYN ever was a man, and his name was Hillary - his Ukrainian parents thought it was a good name for a boy).

So, I'll happily train to defend myself under the tutelage of a male instructor. And if I feel he lacks understanding of my unique position as a woman, I'll just say so instead of seething at him not understanding. I wouldn't expect my instructor to be telepathic and just automatically figure out exactly what I need. But I can still learn a lot. So that's what I'll do.

 

[Tez3]

(incidentally, my favorite OBGYN ever was a man, and his name was Hillary - his Ukrainian parents thought it was a good name for a boy).

It is actually a masculine name which is also used for females.

I think you are slightly missing the point, women don't choose to train under a female martial arts instructor because they have suffered attacks but because they most likely know the problems, weaknesses and strengths better. No you don't chose a cardiologist because they have had a cardiac event but neither do you choose a cardiologist when you actually need a midwife.

No one is 'seething' at male instructors, nor is anyone expecting them to be telepathic. male instructors are seeking to improve their teaching to females, so we need to help them by telling them what we need if we know and many female students don't.

Taking training as you find it may seem a good idea but indiscriminate training by students who think they can fix things themselves is probably not the way to go forward. Like learning from videos you can get a couple of techniques just about right but just about may prove not enough.

 

[AngryHobbit]

It is actually a masculine name which is also used for females.

I think you are slightly missing the point, women don't choose to train under a female martial arts instructor because they have suffered attacks but because they most likely know the problems, weaknesses and strengths better. No you don't chose a cardiologist because they have had a cardiac event but neither do you choose a cardiologist when you actually need a midwife.

No one is 'seething' at male instructors, nor is anyone expecting them to be telepathic. male instructors are seeking to improve their teaching to females, so we need to help them by telling them what we need if we know and many female students don't.

Taking training as you find it may seem a good idea but indiscriminate training by students who think they can fix things themselves is probably not the way to go forward. Like learning from videos you can get a couple of techniques just about right but just about may prove not enough.

I don't advocate training indiscriminately. When my previous instructor and the ... let's say... atmosphere at his dojo became unacceptable to me, as a student and, yes, as a female student, I simply left. That is always a choice. Men and women alike have the option to say, "This doesn't work for me" and act on it. Which I support and encourage.

 

[Tez3]

I don't advocate training indiscriminately. When my previous instructor and the ... let's say... atmosphere at his dojo became unacceptable to me, as a student and, yes, as a female student, I simply left. That is always a choice. Men and women alike have the option to say, "This doesn't work for me" and act on it. Which I support and encourage.

I think we are talking about different things here. I'm not talking about whether the atmosphere is right for women but what is being taught. With the best will in the world and the most honest good instructors they may not be teaching what works for women.

 

[AngryHobbit]

I think we are talking about different things here. I'm not talking about whether the atmosphere is right for women but what is being taught. With the best will in the world and the most honest good instructors they may not be teaching what works for women.

Again, if a woman feels what is taught is not right for her, she can move on and look for something else. Or, if nothing else is available, she can consider how to adapt what IS available to her needs.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Of course... THIS would be fun.

The History Of The Onna-Bugeisha — Japan's Badass Female Samurai