Woman, 61, arrested for asking ‘why'

[Bob Hubbard]

Four women, two of them well into middle age, were discussing funeral plans for a friend when an Atlanta police officer told them to move.




Three did but one asked “why.” In answer to her question, Minnie Carey, then 61, was handcuffed, put into a police wagon and taken to jail, where she was held for nine hours.

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/woman-61-arrested-for-309285.html?cxtype=rss_news_128746

The 61 yr old woman who is diabetic was held for 9 hours without food.

APD spokesman Lt. Curtis Davenport said Dolson (the arresting officer) is "suspended without pay for an unrelated incident." He has numerous complaints since 2001, 3 upheld.

The arresting officer and his partner's stories were not consistent with eye witness testimony, which was.

 

[terryl965]

I hate to hear about bad police officers, it makes all the good ones look bad as well, I believe we need to have a better screening process to allow people to become a police person.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The "without pay" part says alot to me. Cops get hit with dozens of BS complaints. It makes it harder to weed out the few bad cops as resources are diverted to fight the bogus complaints.

My problem here is this:
There was no problem.
The cop exceeded his authority.
They made up their story.
9 hours without food is bad enough, but add in a diabetic state, and to me that sounds dangerous.

 

[MJS]

IMO, this seems a bit excessive, but of course, I'm not going to take the news article as gospel. The only thing that comes to mind would be loitering, but unless we know what the laws are in Atlanta regarding that.....

Of course, I'm of the mind, that I'd rather save myself a headache, do what I'm told, at the moment, and then, if need be, file a complaint at the PD. As far as her having a right to ask why she had to move....well, she's saying she simply asked, the cops are saying she was acting like a nut. Again, the Chris Rock clip comes to mind. The handful of times, I've had dealings with the police, I've been polite, even if I felt I did nothing wrong.

Regarding her medical issues...well, unless I missed it, I saw no mention of her saying anything to the police about it. Unless the cops were mind readers, they'd have no knowledge of any medical issues, unless she mentioned them. Now, if she did, and was still put at risk, well, thats a different story.

It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

 

[Blade96]

say huh....

weird cop.....

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The Citizen Review Board found that Atlanta Police officer Brandy Dolson had violated APD policies and had falsely arrested Carey.

Carey and one of the women who was with her that afternoon said Carey was not loud.
The accounts provided by Carey, Dolson, Dolson’s partner and witnesses are essentially the same, according to records.
Carey met three friends on the sidewalk outside the Boulevard Lotto convenience store mid-afternoon last March 26, and for a few moments they talked about upcoming services for a friend who had died after she was hit by a car in front of the store where they were standing.
Dolson and his partner pulled up and told the four women to “move it.”
All agreed that the women were not blocking the sidewalk and that the women were the only people on the sidewalk.
Three women started walking away but Carey didn’t, asking “why” instead.
An account given by Dolson's partner, Jamie Nelson, was that Carey “yelled ‘why’ with a loud manner and refused to leave after we instructed her several times to do so.”
Carey and one of the women with her, 56-year-old Diane Ward, told the AJC there was no shouting.
All the same, Dolson’s answer to Carey’s question was “because I said so,” according to the file.

"Because I said so" does not equal "I have a legitimate, legal reason backed up by law".

Sorry, but reading the news report this seems a lot like "I have a uniform and a badge and you will Respect my Authority"".

You pull up and tell me to move on, I am going to ask you why. I'm going to ask you what law I'm breaking. I'm going to ask you what I'm doing wrong.
See, I expect that if you are a cop, that you have a legitimate reason to bother me. I expect that you understand the law that you are sworn to enforce. I expect that you will be a professional in your behavior.

I also expect that if you are unprofessional, if you are threatening, if you are physically confrontational, that the real law will catch up with you, and you will face discipline, and in some cases lose your job, and possibly your own freedom. Just ask David K. Robida.

 

[MJS]

"Because I said so" does not equal "I have a legitimate, legal reason backed up by law".

Sorry, but reading the news report this seems a lot like "I have a uniform and a badge and you will Respect my Authority"".

You pull up and tell me to move on, I am going to ask you why. I'm going to ask you what law I'm breaking. I'm going to ask you what I'm doing wrong.
See, I expect that if you are a cop, that you have a legitimate reason to bother me. I expect that you understand the law that you are sworn to enforce. I expect that you will be a professional in your behavior.

I also expect that if you are unprofessional, if you are threatening, if you are physically confrontational, that the real law will catch up with you, and you will face discipline, and in some cases lose your job, and possibly your own freedom. Just ask David K. Robida.

I'm not going to disagree with the fact that there're many who seem to let the badge and gun go to their head. Even when I was working with the DOC, dealing with dirtbags on a daily basis, when I gave an inmate an order, I always did my best to be polite....firm, but polite. Of course, there were times when that polite tone changed, when they started being jerks, but anyways...point being, if you're a dick, you're not going to get respect.

Regarding the standing on the sidewalk:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/loitering

From the article:

"Carey met three friends on the sidewalk outside the Boulevard Lotto convenience store mid-afternoon last March 26, and for a few moments they talked about upcoming services for a friend who had died after she was hit by a car in front of the store where they were standing."

I'm interested in the exact amount of time they were standing there. Whats a 'few moments' defined as? 30sec? 2min? 10min? I"m also interested in the exact laws for that city/town, regarding loitering.

On a side note, I was in the train station, waiting for the train to go to NYC. I popped into one of the small stores, to get a magazine for the ride. I picked one up, glanced at it for no more than a minute, to see if it was something that I would actually be interested in, and the clerk behind the counter, told me that I couldn't do that. I had to either put it back on the shelf or buy it, but I couldn't read it. Needless to say, I placed it back on the shelf and walked out. For the sake of discussion, I guess I was loitering in the store. *shrug*

 

[Carol]

Doesn't sound like loitering to me...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_loitering_law_for_Georgia

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My point is, just because a cop says to do something, it doesn't mean you have a legal requirement to do it.

Of course, there are right and wrong ways to handle things.

If you tell me to move along, and I ask why, and you say "because I said so", that doesn't establish a reason.

If I ask "what law says I have to" and you get pissed, that still doesn't establish that it was a lawful order.

If you tell me to move, and I ask why, and you say "because the law says you have to", and I go and look up that law and find it doesn't exist, what happens to your credibility as a cop? (Happens to photographers all the time, imaginary no-photo laws). The next time I'm stopped I would inform the officer that no such law exists, could he please cite the specific code so I could confirm it later. Any guess on what happens to me next?


For the record, I loiter all the time. Any time I take a walk and stop to catch my breath I'm loitering. I've stopped and sat on curbs, leaned on walls, sat under trees. All of this on a main public street sidewalk. I've also been seen crawling on the ground, under bushes, and along fences, camera in hand. Sometimes in the day, occasionally at 2, 3 am. If I got stopped, I would ask for particulars and law citations, in as polite and non threatening manner as I can. That whole, want to avoid mace and nightstick as neither are good for my health.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Regarding the business, they can make their own rules. See photos in the mall for example. No law says you can't do that. That's mall policy, and you can follow it or shop elsewhere. I avoid any store that won't let me look around, and I avoid any store that follows me around or gives me the 'either buy something or leave' bit. I've watched a few of them close as they drove their customers away.

 

[Archangel M]

My point is, just because a cop says to do something, it doesn't mean you have a legal requirement to do it.

Of course, there are right and wrong ways to handle things.

If you tell me to move along, and I ask why, and you say "because I said so", that doesn't establish a reason.

If I ask "what law says I have to" and you get pissed, that still doesn't establish that it was a lawful order.

If you tell me to move, and I ask why, and you say "because the law says you have to", and I go and look up that law and find it doesn't exist, what happens to your credibility as a cop? (Happens to photographers all the time, imaginary no-photo laws). The next time I'm stopped I would inform the officer that no such law exists, could he please cite the specific code so I could confirm it later. Any guess on what happens to me next?


For the record, I loiter all the time. Any time I take a walk and stop to catch my breath I'm loitering. I've stopped and sat on curbs, leaned on walls, sat under trees. All of this on a main public street sidewalk. I've also been seen crawling on the ground, under bushes, and along fences, camera in hand. Sometimes in the day, occasionally at 2, 3 am. If I got stopped, I would ask for particulars and law citations, in as polite and non threatening manner as I can. That whole, want to avoid mace and nightstick as neither are good for my health.

I see where you are coming from Bob. But be aware of the "PUT YOUR HANDS UP!", because we think you may be the robbery suspect we are being dispatched to, scenario. A "why do I have to" in that situation may just get you Tased, Sprayed or tackled.

It's all in using your head.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There is a common sense aspect here. A cop says stop, I stop. hands up, they go up. Now, show me ID might not get you ID. I often don't carry a drivers license when I'm walking. Let me see your pictures will get a why. It might also get a request from me to shoot (ie photograph) the patrol car if it's clean and in good repair. (I don't have a cop car in my port yet).

I also don't plan on trying the "oh ****", turn run, then when asked why I ran say "you looked like my cousin who I owe money to." bit. (My cousin's a Buffalo cop)

 

[Deaf Smith]

"suspended without pay for an unrelated incident."

That tells alot. Without pay means the higher ups really do think he deserves to be fired. When they suspend with pay it means it's a routine thing and most likely they will be back.

The cop obviously has a big head and problems with his extra-legal rights due to being a LEO. I also suspect his other problems are a result of the same attitude.

Most cops are not like this guy. But it takes just one to sourer alot of people on them.

Deaf

 

[MJS]

Well, if that link is in fact the exact, current law regarding loitering, then it seems to me, that they were ok to be there. If they were in fact causing a disturbance, blocking the sidewalk, blocking the entrance to the business they were in front of, etc, then sure, in that case, I could see cause to tell them to move and if necessary, arrest someone, but in this case, I'm not seeing that, unless there is more to the article/story, that we dont know.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Its best to just move along if a cop asks you to. Its not worth questioning. Cops have the power to make your life miserable, and most of the time they get away with the dirty things they do. Thats why they do it, because usually they will rarely get in trouble.

Say a cop has a bag of dope on him from another person he stopped, and let them go because he was a old friend or something, then pulls you over and dont like your attitude. Searches your car and pretends he found the bag of dope in your car. What is your defence? It wasnt mine! will get you lol'ed at. And if you had any prior convictions, and cleaned up your act to live a crime free life, just the fact that you were in trouble in the past will take all credibility from your defence. Think about it

 

[MJS]

Its best to just move along if a cop asks you to. Its not worth questioning.

QFT! This is what I was talking about in my first post. Sometimes, IMO, its better to just do whats asked, check your pride/ego, and move on with your business, and if you really feel it necessary, file the complaint later on. But at the moment, just do whats asked.

This may not be the favorite thing to do, in the eyes of some, but IMO, its better than being a jerk and brining on a **** storm that you may regret later on.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, but let me be deviled advocate here.

Cop illegally violates my rights. We'll use the 'move along because I said so' bit here.
I obey the unlawful order. My rights are violated. I file a complaint. Cop gets at best a wrist slap. My rights were still violated.

So, what happens the next time? Do I move on again? Do I tell the cop "last time you said that, your boss said you were wrong. By the way, I checked, and that law you said I was violating? Yeah, it doesn't exist. I checked, and your boss confirmed it."

So, here's my question.

How many teeth will I lose when he bounces my head off the pavement then cites me for "disobeying a cop", and "assaulting a sidewalk", and "littering" (for the teeth I left there" and "creating a biohazard" (for the blood I spill as a result), as well as "disturbing the peace" (my screams of pain), "obstruction of a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duties" (not obeying the unlawful order), "obstruction of a public right of way" (because I fell down when he hit me), etc?

Or, do I again allow him to violate my rights, file yet another minor complaint that goes no where?

On one hand I avoid potential pain, physical harm and significant financial and time drains. On the other hand, my rights are violated.

What's the point of having rights then?

If civilians do not stand up to cops issuing unlawful orders and pushing non-existent laws, what is there to stop them from violating our rights? If we do not stand up for those rights, we lose them by default.

"But Bob, all they were asked was to move. What's the big deal?"

Move. Stand here, no there. Let me see your ID. Answer these 20 questions. Lets see whats in that bag. Show me your pictures. Delete your pictures. Don't take those pictures. Don't film me. Don't record me. No I won't tell you my name or badge number. No I don't have to explain it just do as I say.

Where does it stop before "whats the harm" becomes "no choice."

Cops are to defend and enforce the law.
Not create the law.
Not above the law.
Bound by the law.
Must operate within the law.

Most cops get that. Some, like the subject of the OP, think otherwise.

Am I wrong here?

 

[Archangel M]

Not being confrontational with this Bob, just furthering a conversation:

But I find it a bit conflicting that on one thread you are advocating accepting the risk of physical harm to fight for your rights but on another you are advocating to "not get involved" in helping a cop getting beat up because of the risk of physical harm.

I think that perhaps you are just looking to debate some reasonable issues, but it seems either contradictory or a tad "anti".

Just lobbing the conversation ball back to your side of the net.

 

[xJOHNx]

Although I think that I shouldn't meddle in this discussion.
I can't help but post something, someone wiser than me said.

“The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.”

Ayn Rand.

And the situation the woman was in, is horrible.

 

[MJS]

Ok, but let me be deviled advocate here.

Cop illegally violates my rights. We'll use the 'move along because I said so' bit here.
I obey the unlawful order. My rights are violated. I file a complaint. Cop gets at best a wrist slap. My rights were still violated.

So, what happens the next time? Do I move on again? Do I tell the cop "last time you said that, your boss said you were wrong. By the way, I checked, and that law you said I was violating? Yeah, it doesn't exist. I checked, and your boss confirmed it."

So, here's my question.

See, I attribute this to walking away, vs. fighting with some jackoff who yells at you because you 'supposedly' cut him off in traffic. We could walk away, chalking it up to the guy simply being an *******, or we could challenge what he's saying. Now, for what its worth, every time someone accusses me of cutting them off, I dont always walk away. I'll give in to their antics, and yell back. But the more I think of it, in the end, its not worth me giving in to him, so short of the guy trying to physically assault me, yes, I usually sputter a few things, and go about my business.

The issue with the police....it sounds to me, as if people are trying to say there're more bad than good. Are we that fearful in todays world, where we have to worry that God forbid we pass by a cop, that he may, yell at us, slam us against a car, take us to the ground, etc.? Again, I'm not saying that there are no bad cops out there, and I'm sure we've all seen cases, but come on....if we're going to be that afraid....

How many teeth will I lose when he bounces my head off the pavement then cites me for "disobeying a cop", and "assaulting a sidewalk", and "littering" (for the teeth I left there" and "creating a biohazard" (for the blood I spill as a result), as well as "disturbing the peace" (my screams of pain), "obstruction of a law enforcement officer in the performance of his duties" (not obeying the unlawful order), "obstruction of a public right of way" (because I fell down when he hit me), etc?

Or, do I again allow him to violate my rights, file yet another minor complaint that goes no where?

On one hand I avoid potential pain, physical harm and significant financial and time drains. On the other hand, my rights are violated.

What's the point of having rights then?

If civilians do not stand up to cops issuing unlawful orders and pushing non-existent laws, what is there to stop them from violating our rights? If we do not stand up for those rights, we lose them by default.

"But Bob, all they were asked was to move. What's the big deal?"

Move. Stand here, no there. Let me see your ID. Answer these 20 questions. Lets see whats in that bag. Show me your pictures. Delete your pictures. Don't take those pictures. Don't film me. Don't record me. No I won't tell you my name or badge number. No I don't have to explain it just do as I say.

Where does it stop before "whats the harm" becomes "no choice."

Cops are to defend and enforce the law.
Not create the law.
Not above the law.
Bound by the law.
Must operate within the law.

Most cops get that. Some, like the subject of the OP, think otherwise.

Am I wrong here?

I've taken calls, and still do, to this day, from residents and store owners, who complain about large groups of kids or adults, that're just 'hanging out' not really doing anything wrong per se, other than just hanging out, and I have to send a cop to move them along, no matter how stupid I may think the call is.

A state cop pulled me over one night on the highway. I was coming home from work (not the job I have now), saw something going on, on the other side of the highway, so I did what everyone else does...I rubbernecked, and in the course of this, swerved a bit. He was in an unmarked car. I saw a car behind me, but thought nothing of it. Next thing I know, he lights me up. I explained what happened, but still had to show my DL and reg., answer where I was coming from/going to, etc. Real nice cop, I explained that I lived right off the exit ramp, was on my way home, apologized for the slight swerve, and that was that. No issues, no pat downs, no search of the car, nothing. Now, had I gave him a hard time, I could almost bet that I'd have had a miserable time.

Then again, we're assuming that the worst thats going to happen, will be a wrist slap.