Wing Chun + Spear

Yoshiyahu

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I often hear people speaking of crosstraining WC with the BJJ or Muay Thai or Krav Maga or JJJ or even some other ground art. But WC only has two weapons. Why not cross train other weapons as well?

Why not use a spear with Wing Chun? Would that be effective?

For instance we use the long pole. Its a nine foot pole that sometimes is thinner at the end for poking. Why not use a Spear too?


11-WEy8wJlL.jpg

stok.jpg


Above you have the spear than the Long pole​

Do you guys see using the spear as compatible with WC why or why not? Would it make it beneficial to utilize a spear with WC in combat? If someone had a knife an tried to attack you? Notice the Luk Dim Boon Kwan is thinner at the end similair to a pool stick!

pole3.jpg
 

profesormental

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Of course.

Actually, the mechanics of the pole are very much the same as that of a polearm or spear. Much fun!
 

profesormental

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P.S. of course, the spear weights less, so you will tend to explode with the spear after training the pole.
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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I'm not realy interested in spears in particular as I have no way of realisticly applying that knowledge in the streat. And as I was explained the long pole form(don't have it though), it can be applyed to swords, bats, long stuff in general. Not neceseraly a 2m pole.

But I would love to train a knife art such as Pekiti tirsia kali! That looks awsome! I would love to check it out...
 

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Eru Il繳vatar;1107745 said:
I'm not realy interested in spears in particular as I have no way of realisticly applying that knowledge in the streat... I would love to train a knife art such as Pekiti tirsia kali! That looks awsome! I would love to check it out...

Go for it. Many Filipino Martial Arts stress the ability to make transitions from one weapon to another, and to empty hands. I study Eskrima and it has helped me get the most out of my WT. If you haven't already, check out FMA Talk. And among the Pekiti groups, I've heard great stuff about Tuhon Bill McGrath.
 

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If i can remember correctly wing chun used only two weapons to teach how to apply force correctly. The pole is for learning to apply force through a long object and the swords are for learning to apply force through a bladed edge. Once these principles are learned you should be able to utilise any weapon i think.

Then again don't take my word for it because i have only been training for 4 months, was just something i heard :)
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Are you allowed to use knifes in the street? Are there laws in your state for carrying knives?


If you kill an unarmed man with a knife what would happen?

Also lets say someone has a gun would your knife be able to help you?

I just want to know why is the knife such a big thing now...I mean its still illegal to stab someone isn't it?

I dont know maybe I am crazy...


Eru Il繳vatar;1107745 said:
I'm not realy interested in spears in particular as I have no way of realisticly applying that knowledge in the streat. And as I was explained the long pole form(don't have it though), it can be applyed to swords, bats, long stuff in general. Not neceseraly a 2m pole.

But I would love to train a knife art such as Pekiti tirsia kali! That looks awsome! I would love to check it out...
 

mook jong man

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In Australia you are not allowed to carry knives around , and if you are a trained person and you use it on some one then you would be in serious trouble unless it was in the most dire of circumstances .

But I believe to defend against the knife you have to know all the ways it can be used . I trained for a while in Floro Fighting Systems an art based on Kalis Ilustrisimo , and very quickly I learned to develop a healthy respect for the blade .

There were no forms to be learnt and no flashy techniques , just a lot of hard sparring with knives and sticks with ice hockey helmets and gloves on so that strikes could be done close to full power . Until I met my instructor I thought I could stop a knife thrust to the face , I had years of Wing Chun under my belt and good reflexes .

But he said put the hockey helmet on and try to block or parry my knife thrust to your face anyway you can , I put my hands up and he said are you ready and I said yes .

Boom , his homemade training knife comes rocketing in to the face grill of the hockey helmet , I was seeing stars . I didn't even see his arm move , I said gimme another go , I'll make sure I stop it this time , Boom ,same thing happened again .

What had happened was that I had met a superior martial artist who didn't telegraph , was freakishly fast , could use deception and was a master of controlling range .

If you stepped one centimetre inside his range you would be hit , you could lunge as fast and as hard as you can with the knife but he always made you miss by mere centimetres , and then when you were extended you would get another knife thrust in the face .

My friend and I trained with this master in his garage for about a year and half as he only taught privately , we learned knife , unarmed against knife , single hand stick , double hand stick , machete , bandana , and pole .

He showed me some beautiful knives that he owned , but due to the law he can't carry them around , he doesn't need them anyway , he's quite capable of defending himself empty handed . I believe to have a chance against the knife you must train with the experts , the Phillipinos .

So even though I practiced a lot of knife on knife sparring in a country in which I am not allowed to carry a knife the attributes that this sparring developed were invaluable especially the ability to recognise my opponents range and by using the footwork taught to me I could cause my opponent to fall short with his knife thrust and then capitolising on his mistake I respond with my own knife thrust while he is off balance .

The concentration and not to mention fear that is present when your instructor is striking at your head with a live machete ( but blunt ) and you have to block it with your own machete with sparks flying off the blade is really something to be be experienced , especially when every fibre of your being is telling you to back up and get away from him .

I think more people are like me they just want to get familar with the weapon , understand the ways it can be used and hopefully give themselves a chance in defending against it unarmed , not necessarilly carrying a knife with them and using it to stab people in self defence situations .
 

dungeonworks

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Are you allowed to use knifes in the street? Are there laws in your state for carrying knives?


If you kill an unarmed man with a knife what would happen?

Also lets say someone has a gun would your knife be able to help you?

I just want to know why is the knife such a big thing now...I mean its still illegal to stab someone isn't it?

I dont know maybe I am crazy...


Here in Michigan, USA, the situation (and more importantly, the jury deciding so) dictates the use of deadly force more than the weapon in your hand. In a nutshell, if you feel your life is in danger you can use deadly force. Now, convincing a jury of your peers will be another obstacle altogether, and your choice of weapon will have an effect. People are more scared of knives because they are used to guns and guns therefore are generally seen as more civil means of self defense. Either way, you must prove beyond a shadow of doubt what your intent for having said weapon was and why you felt you life was in unquestionable danger of being terminated. Say you are robbed at the bus stop at gun point and you are able to slash or stab your opponent and he dies. Say it is with a Kris Dagger, a weapon that is intimidating to look at. Not too many people carry them in modern society and some may get the impression you could have been asking for a chance to use it. Let's say the prosecutor finds out you train with said weapon and plays this off as an inhumane advantage due to your schooled knowledge of it's use. The average "soccer mom" juror is going to likely be swayed and open to the idea that your intentions for carrying such a menacing looking weapon was not righteous from the onset. Now, take that same scenario and put a box cutter or utility knife in place of the Kris. Why did you have it on you? It could be easily argued that it was for your work and it was the first thing available to you and much easier to defend in a US court of law than a tactical knife, martial arts weapon, or other tool designed to kill or maim. The same can be said for a gun carried and used in the same scenario. Use a Tech-9, AR-15, AK-47...ect and repercussions will be seen differently than if it was just another semi auto or revolver.

Basically, you are allowed to do just enough to stop your aggressor using deadly force only if your life is in danger. Proving that your life is at risk of death is another battle entirely.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Mook Jong excellent response. I love your post...sounds like you have had a lot fun working with the knife...sounds awesome...was you teacher philipino?


Dungeon works: so true about weapons. Thats why I keep a long screw driver and box cutters with me all the time.

In Australia you are not allowed to carry knives around , and if you are a trained person and you use it on some one then you would be in serious trouble unless it was in the most dire of circumstances .

But I believe to defend against the knife you have to know all the ways it can be used . I trained for a while in Floro Fighting Systems an art based on Kalis Ilustrisimo , and very quickly I learned to develop a healthy respect for the blade .

There were no forms to be learnt and no flashy techniques , just a lot of hard sparring with knives and sticks with ice hockey helmets and gloves on so that strikes could be done close to full power . Until I met my instructor I thought I could stop a knife thrust to the face , I had years of Wing Chun under my belt and good reflexes .

But he said put the hockey helmet on and try to block or parry my knife thrust to your face anyway you can , I put my hands up and he said are you ready and I said yes .

Boom , his homemade training knife comes rocketing in to the face grill of the hockey helmet , I was seeing stars . I didn't even see his arm move , I said gimme another go , I'll make sure I stop it this time , Boom ,same thing happened again .

What had happened was that I had met a superior martial artist who didn't telegraph , was freakishly fast , could use deception and was a master of controlling range .

If you stepped one centimetre inside his range you would be hit , you could lunge as fast and as hard as you can with the knife but he always made you miss by mere centimetres , and then when you were extended you would get another knife thrust in the face .

My friend and I trained with this master in his garage for about a year and half as he only taught privately , we learned knife , unarmed against knife , single hand stick , double hand stick , machete , bandana , and pole .

He showed me some beautiful knives that he owned , but due to the law he can't carry them around , he doesn't need them anyway , he's quite capable of defending himself empty handed . I believe to have a chance against the knife you must train with the experts , the Phillipinos .

So even though I practiced a lot of knife on knife sparring in a country in which I am not allowed to carry a knife the attributes that this sparring developed were invaluable especially the ability to recognise my opponents range and by using the footwork taught to me I could cause my opponent to fall short with his knife thrust and then capitolising on his mistake I respond with my own knife thrust while he is off balance .

The concentration and not to mention fear that is present when your instructor is striking at your head with a live machete ( but blunt ) and you have to block it with your own machete with sparks flying off the blade is really something to be be experienced , especially when every fibre of your being is telling you to back up and get away from him .

I think more people are like me they just want to get familar with the weapon , understand the ways it can be used and hopefully give themselves a chance in defending against it unarmed , not necessarilly carrying a knife with them and using it to stab people in self defence situations .
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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Are you allowed to use knifes in the street? Are there laws in your state for carrying knives?


If you kill an unarmed man with a knife what would happen?

Also lets say someone has a gun would your knife be able to help you?

I just want to know why is the knife such a big thing now...I mean its still illegal to stab someone isn't it?

I dont know maybe I am crazy...

I think I wrote somewhere before that where I'm from I could get screwed if I stabed a guy even when attacked by multiple unarmed attackers. I could carry a knife below 3inches with me. I have lots of knives but I think none is below 3inches :) And to answer your question; the knife isn't a big thing but thats one of the things I would train for fun :) I'm not that kind of person that I would feel threatened if I don't have a knife with me(though I know lots who have an armory allway with them) and don's see my self walkting arround with one in my pocket. Just don't see the need. But if for some reason I would have a knife with me or in my reach and I was attacked by multiple guys(armed or unarmed) and I felt like I was in life danger I would go on a stabbing spree :) Though I like the knife becouse you can sort of choose to slice the guy and heart him/not neceserely stab him threw the heart/lungs and kill him. The gun in my country is basicly not an option; even if I get a licence it is ileagel to carry it loaded(would have to cary to bullet cartrige and the gun seperately) which makes it basicly useless for self defence :)

Go for it. Many Filipino Martial Arts stress the ability to make transitions from one weapon to another, and to empty hands. I study Eskrima and it has helped me get the most out of my WT. If you haven't already, check out FMA Talk. And among the Pekiti groups, I've heard great stuff about Tuhon Bill McGrath.

Yea I would realy like to. The problem is that where I'm from I have very limited options. There is one place where I could train it but it's a part of the ryu kyu kempo curriculum and is one of the arts the incorporate in their training(to me it looks like theyre practising a JKD concepts thing). Though they are very good I'm not sure I want to go threw the whole belt thing again and threw all the lame stuff(to me) to get to the good stuff(also in my opinion). On the good side: I hear my old EBMAS instructor will come back before the summer :) So I'm gonna continiu training there and will probably start training Escrima with him. Depends on the time and how bad the recession hits my wallet when it realy comes to my country ofcourse. But gonna train EBMAS for sure!
 
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Yoshiyahu

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I am enjoying all of the responses...To those new to this thread the topic is do you think Wing Chun is compatible with using a spear. Now of course we can not walk around with spears...But nor can we walk around with short swords or butterfly knives or long poles either. So from the standpoint of mere practice or some "what if" scenario's do you think Learning how to use the spear with your Wing Chun is comaptible.


I realize now an days WC people tend to only learn two weapons. But what about weapons that closely resemble the long pole and short swords.

Could one also use a spear? would it still be wing chun....

Could someone fight or spar with two broadswords? Would that still be Wing Chun?


"The What If"
If you watching a wing chun movie and see some guy grab a spear an starts killing people with it would it still be consider wing chun?
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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I think it would still be WC, sure. And as Sticklion was thought I too was explained that when you have the weapons you should know how to fight with any weapon using WC(at least in theory). I don't have the weapon forms tho... It is true tho(as you might have deciphered from my posts) that my definition of WC is pretty broad :)
 
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Yoshiyahu

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I believe so too...I think your right....


Also what about cross training another style of Gung Fu weapons like Bagua or Tai Chi...Do you think Cross training other weapons arts would improve your wing chun?:


Eru Il繳vatar;1108553 said:
I think it would still be WC, sure. And as Sticklion was thought I too was explained that when you have the weapons you should know how to fight with any weapon using WC(at least in theory). I don't have the weapon forms tho... It is true tho(as you might have deciphered from my posts) that my definition of WC is pretty broad :)
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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Realy hard to say as I don't even have the WC weapon sets (as I mentioned). Have practiced stick/knife fighting with my instructor according to WC principals tho. I think every art can help you. If it totaly sucks(and rarely is there an art you can gain nothing from) you can atleast learn about new attacks you can expect on the streat. Exploit there weakneses maybe?

I have trained TKD, WT, Kickboxing, and plain WC. Allthough I liked the plain WC the best I still find all the arts I trained in very valuable. I also prefer some WT responses to some WC responses I was thought. I would basicly say I'm doing JKD concepts :) Allthough I focus on being true to WC principals and concepts and nothing but too WC principals and concepts I would use a roundhouse whatever or a highkick if I saw I could pull it of in that moment and would feel like it would finish the fight sooner than the WC approach.

So yes, I think you can do no wrong by training any art if you have time and the will ofcourse.
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Actually True Wing Chun seeks to end the fight quickly. So if stepping outside of WC attacks and hands to end the fight that will be true WC. If it takes a high kick to face to win do it. What if your arms were injuried to the point you couldnt lift them up. Would it be wrong to kick the person in the face as your last resort if you have lighting fast kicks and are very flexible. Would it be wrong...

Wing Chun is not a lazy non-practicing. Wing Chun is not an art that doesn't build power and train you to increase your strenght and flexibilty and speed. Wing Chun should enhance you. Many people think you do not need to be in shape to be a good wing chun guy.

Maybe for doing forms and training you can be some outshape, stiff,slow,weak guy. But if you want to be a true Wing Chun figther. Build strenght so your punches will injure. Train flexibility so your legs and arms can move easily and faster. Train speed so you can attack faster than the average fighter. The Average joe doesn't train anything. But if you want to be a fighter you need to train hard an imporve.

Its not enough to have good technique and proper alignment an a understanding of principals. You can be book smart. But if you lack phyiscal attributes needed for a fighter. The fighter who has those things needed with equal skill will hand your **** to you...Sometimes a fighter who has more speed,power,strength and flexibilty than you will win the fight. Even if they have less skills. I saw that this weekend when an older guy fought a TKD. The older guy has been doing Tai Chi for ten years and did TKD for like 30 years.


But my question is whats the difference between

WC and WT?


Eru Il繳vatar;1109698 said:
Realy hard to say as I don't even have the WC weapon sets (as I mentioned). Have practiced stick/knife fighting with my instructor according to WC principals tho. I think every art can help you. If it totaly sucks(and rarely is there an art you can gain nothing from) you can atleast learn about new attacks you can expect on the streat. Exploit there weakneses maybe?

I have trained TKD, WT, Kickboxing, and plain WC. Allthough I liked the plain WC the best I still find all the arts I trained in very valuable. I also prefer some WT responses to some WC responses I was thought. I would basicly say I'm doing JKD concepts :) Allthough I focus on being true to WC principals and concepts and nothing but too WC principals and concepts I would use a roundhouse whatever or a highkick if I saw I could pull it of in that moment and would feel like it would finish the fight sooner than the WC approach.

So yes, I think you can do no wrong by training any art if you have time and the will ofcourse.
 

geezer

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Eru Il繳vatar;1109698 said:
Realy hard to say as I don't even have the WC weapon sets (as I mentioned). Have practiced stick/knife fighting with my instructor according to WC principals tho...

So yes, I think you can do no wrong by training any art if you have time and the will ofcourse.

I agree with your perspective. Also, some of the folks reading this may not realize that in WT ( including all the branches I know of -- IWTA, EWTO, NWTO, EBMAS, etc.), the weapons training is the very last thing you are taught. There are some very advanced WT guys out there, who are superb fighters, who haven't learned the weapons. So, people shouldn't assume that just because you haven't learned the weapons that you are "inexperienced".
 

Eru Il繙vatar

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Actually True Wing Chun seeks to end the fight quickly. So if stepping outside of WC attacks and hands to end the fight that will be true WC. If it takes a high kick to face to win do it. What if your arms were injuried to the point you couldnt lift them up. Would it be wrong to kick the person in the face as your last resort if you have lighting fast kicks and are very flexible. Would it be wrong...

Wing Chun is not a lazy non-practicing. Wing Chun is not an art that doesn't build power and train you to increase your strenght and flexibilty and speed. Wing Chun should enhance you. Many people think you do not need to be in shape to be a good wing chun guy.

Maybe for doing forms and training you can be some outshape, stiff,slow,weak guy. But if you want to be a true Wing Chun figther. Build strenght so your punches will injure. Train flexibility so your legs and arms can move easily and faster. Train speed so you can attack faster than the average fighter. The Average joe doesn't train anything. But if you want to be a fighter you need to train hard an imporve.

Its not enough to have good technique and proper alignment an a understanding of principals. You can be book smart. But if you lack phyiscal attributes needed for a fighter. The fighter who has those things needed with equal skill will hand your **** to you...Sometimes a fighter who has more speed,power,strength and flexibilty than you will win the fight. Even if they have less skills. I saw that this weekend when an older guy fought a TKD. The older guy has been doing Tai Chi for ten years and did TKD for like 30 years.


But my question is whats the difference between

WC and WT?

I think the problem here is in diffrent definitions of WC. But it doesn't realy matter cuz in the end I think we're following a similar philosophy. But just to explain where I'm comming from: I think WC is something very specific. It is neither the art with the most powerful strike, nor does it have the fastest strike etc., I could go on and on but instead of that I will tell you what I think WC is. I think WC looks at both extremes of the specter and chooses to go right in the middle. Thus it has both at it's disposal equaly. It's an art that doesnt commit to anything. It's half external/half internal, half defence/half offence, half mobility/half stability, half flexibility/half rootedness etc., etc. You could realy go on and on. WC in my opinion doesn't go into extremes. And that is why it so effective in street combat and why it works for the average Joe. For example WC won't comprimise defence in my opinion for a good strike, it will strive to do both. Silmutanius defence offense.

This is basicly how I see WC. But like you I train other stuff that in my opinion have nothing to do with WC. Yes, even highkicks. I feel that in the right situation(maybe against a nervus hyperactive puncher) a boxers cross that smashes threw the opponents guard/an unexpected roundhouse highkick can end the fight more quickly than going threw the whole Chi sao rutine, searching for the opening-opening presents itself in the stomach area you punch and disturb him, the follow with 10chainpunches to the head. Lame example I know. And I bet most will say but yea if you're a WC guy you should have/agaist that ype of guy it would be better... I was just trying to make a point. Hope you know what I mean.

And sure one needs fight experience, sparring and basicly all the things you mention. But I look at WC as an art trying to outpower all the opponents strengths threw skill, not trying to outpower him by acctualy making yourself stronger, more agile, faster etc. You can do all that and it's a smart thing to do! I just feel that according to WC philosophy thats not WC. For example: WC afterall comes from Taoism, Zen Budhism; they teach be nothing special, be ordinary, when you feel like eating-eat, when feel like drinking-drink, be nothing special. To paraphrase: respond to the situation accordingly, just enough, not too much. That in my opinion is WC. Accomplishing a goal with a least amount of strength necesery. I don't see bodybuilding and hardcore conditioning following that.

But thats just my opinion. And as I said I think we do/think of things the same; the problem is we define same concepts diffrently. Doesn't realy matter...

The diffrences between WC and WT would be hard to define. Look at the diffrences between WT and WC as diffrences from a WC school to a WC school. Besides, I bet that there are a lot of diffrences even in WT itself among school to school against the same organisation. Geezer, maybe you have more experience on the subject?
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Bruce Lee often qouted the Tao. He is shining example on how to be ordianary. But at the same time he had Exceptional phyisque and phyiscal attributes. He trained both the Chi and External side. He was very strong and powerful as well as extremely fast and flexibly...His Wing Chun was very good. Was he anything Exceptional. Of course he was. Very exceptional and not the norm. But did he act or demand as such. No the Tao is speaking of your personality and how you carry yourself. It doesn't mean be lazy and don't take care of your body. Your body is a temple. Put in to it what it needs. Do not put junk and crap into it. Your body should be nourished and cared for. It should be refined and improved.

As for power. Lets say you can move a heavy bag two feet by punching with all your power. Wouldn't it be beneficial to build the strength to punch with half your power and move the bag two feet? Why not double your power so when your not using your all the force being issued out is greater than average joes. Why not build up your speed and strength. After all more flexibility also causes a higher chi flow. Meaning Chi can travel faster and heavier through out your meridans.

Why not train stamina. Why not run three miles. If you can run three miles and able to control your breathing wouldn't that be advantage to your wing chun. Why not do push ups and one thousand front punches?

If you can throw a thousand doesn't mean the person who is not use to trhowing a thousand will tire quicker???


Why not increase your Flow,Chi,Timing,Balance and Accuracy.

You are right WC is about balance.

So you have skill in motion also train building your root.

So you have internal power. Why not increase both internal and external power.

So you have correct structure why not add to it more speed as well?

Whats wrong with more speed? Strength? Power Flexibility?

Whats with the teaching now an days...all you need to do is practice mere forms...An not much else?

old school chinese I know do not just practice their Wing Chun one sided. They practice both the internal and external. Many of the many External training methods are also ways to developing more chi!

Eru Il繳vatar;1110362 said:
I think the problem here is in diffrent definitions of WC. But it doesn't realy matter cuz in the end I think we're following a similar philosophy. But just to explain where I'm comming from: I think WC is something very specific. It is neither the art with the most powerful strike, nor does it have the fastest strike etc., I could go on and on but instead of that I will tell you what I think WC is. I think WC looks at both extremes of the specter and chooses to go right in the middle. Thus it has both at it's disposal equaly. It's an art that doesnt commit to anything. It's half external/half internal, half defence/half offence, half mobility/half stability, half flexibility/half rootedness etc., etc. You could realy go on and on. WC in my opinion doesn't go into extremes. And that is why it so effective in street combat and why it works for the average Joe. For example WC won't comprimise defence in my opinion for a good strike, it will strive to do both. Silmutanius defence offense.

This is basicly how I see WC. But like you I train other stuff that in my opinion have nothing to do with WC. Yes, even highkicks. I feel that in the right situation(maybe against a nervus hyperactive puncher) a boxers cross that smashes threw the opponents guard/an unexpected roundhouse highkick can end the fight more quickly than going threw the whole Chi sao rutine, searching for the opening-opening presents itself in the stomach area you punch and disturb him, the follow with 10chainpunches to the head. Lame example I know. And I bet most will say but yea if you're a WC guy you should have/agaist that ype of guy it would be better... I was just trying to make a point. Hope you know what I mean.

And sure one needs fight experience, sparring and basicly all the things you mention. But I look at WC as an art trying to outpower all the opponents strengths threw skill, not trying to outpower him by acctualy making yourself stronger, more agile, faster etc. You can do all that and it's a smart thing to do! I just feel that according to WC philosophy thats not WC. For example: WC afterall comes from Taoism, Zen Budhism; they teach be nothing special, be ordinary, when you feel like eating-eat, when feel like drinking-drink, be nothing special. To paraphrase: respond to the situation accordingly, just enough, not too much. That in my opinion is WC. Accomplishing a goal with a least amount of strength necesery. I don't see bodybuilding and hardcore conditioning following that.

But thats just my opinion. And as I said I think we do/think of things the same; the problem is we define same concepts diffrently. Doesn't realy matter...

The diffrences between WC and WT would be hard to define. Look at the diffrences between WT and WC as diffrences from a WC school to a WC school. Besides, I bet that there are a lot of diffrences even in WT itself among school to school against the same organisation. Geezer, maybe you have more experience on the subject?
 

geezer

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Eru Il繳vatar;1110362 said:
The diffrences between WC and WT would be hard to define. Look at the diffrences between WT and WC as diffrences from a WC school to a WC school. Besides, I bet that there are a lot of diffrences even in WT itself among school to school against the same organisation. Geezer, maybe you have more experience on the subject?

Regarding WC and WT, it really comes down to this: Who do you send your association dues to? LOL.
 
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