Wing Chun Misconceptions

[mook jong man]

I don't think there would be a whole lot you could use to be perfectly honest.

Wing Chun is just not suited to that type of sport , gloves on the hands decrease the effectiveness of trapping and close range striking.
Fighting with no shoes on decreases the effect of low heel kicks to the knees and shins.

Which then leaves you with maybe a snap kick or knee strike to the groin , or hook kicks with the shin to the outer and inner thighs which may or may not be effective against someone who is used to taking heavy impacts on their thighs day in and day out.

You might be able to knee strike the thighs ( I don't know what the rules are ) , elbows you might be able to use - but most of the time they are used off the end of a trapping technique so again we get back to having to know trapping first so that you are not eating punches while you are trying to finish with the coup de grace elbow strike.

There are a lot of forearm strikes to the throat and edge of the hand type palm strikes to the neck in Wing Chun and much like the chain punching these can be delivered in a rapid and continuous manner in conjunction with trapping , you wouldn't be able to use these unless you wanted to see someone on the floor with a crushed larynx.

The system was supposedly designed by a woman so that a smaller person could defeat a larger attacker so of course a very large percentage of the target areas are located on sensitive parts of the anatomy.

These sensitive areas are good for self defence but not so good for sport.

The problem as I see it is that in somebody who has been training quite a long time these moves can be very well ingrained and are integral parts of a lot of the techniques and may not be able to be switched off when under the effects of adrenaline.

I think it would take a very big shift in mind set from self defence to sport , the whole system would have to be re-jigged in order to make it more sports friendly.

Maybe someone might come up with some sort of sports hybrid Wing Chun where most of the lethal techniques are taken out and the normal target areas aren't used.

But its a bit like de-clawing a cat and expecting it to fight a dog , most of its ability to defend itself has been taken away.

 

[matsu]

tez
does sami berik do wing chun?
i youtubed him and i saw kung fu but very little wing chun that i recognised.
having said that, the guy is tough and mad for it!!!
ill keep me eye on him for sure
matsu

 

[Tez3]

tez
does sami berik do wing chun?
i youtubed him and i saw kung fu but very little wing chun that i recognised.
having said that, the guy is tough and mad for it!!!
ill keep me eye on him for sure
matsu

Yes he is WC as well as Tai Chi (fighting), see here from his website ( designed by his brother)

http://www.samiberik.com/hunsite.html

If you You Tubed did you see the Pride & Glory fight ( bad video, not an official one) of his fight with Jenkins? That's our promotion, it was a small fight night we had in Catterick Garrison, there's nowhere big enough to have a proper fight night of any size.

 

[matsu]

thanks for the link, cool site.
he is atough bugger with real heart!
still not sure on his wc lol but he is great to watch
matsu

 

[Tez3]

thanks for the link, cool site.
he is atough bugger with real heart!
still not sure on his wc lol but he is great to watch
matsu

Are you saying you don't think he trained it or you don't see it in his fighting?

 

[matsu]

I would Never question his intergrity his heart or his honour. But there is little wing chun in his cage techiques. He might use what he has learned in his understanding etc
he doesn't check their kicks like we are taught. He swings wild leaving his centre line open and doesn't seek to control theirs.
I am far from experienced and wouldn't last seconds in the ring with him I'm certain and my observations are purely that he might benefit from re looking at some of the things we are taught.
I wish him well in his comeback
matsu

 

[geezer]

I don't use trapping in MMA...because I don't know how to. Saying it doesn't work in MMA or even comparing anythng badly to MMA really, really,really annoys me!...
I don't believe that one can understand an art unless one actually does it, all the reading in the world won't teach you what an instructor can. That goes for a great many things, I can read up about being a surgeon, be word perfect in how to operate but I'm betting no one will want me operating on them!

Ain't that the truth! Thanks, Tez. Goodness knows, there has been an abundance of unqualified speculation flying about on this forum lately. I don't want to add to it.

I've got opinions about how well some WC approaches could work in MMA... but they're just speculations until somebody better than I can get into the cage and try them out. My take is that the best MMA guys are great athletes, and they know what works. If WC concepts will help them win, somebody will pick up on it.

 

[BloodMoney]

I've been actively training and teaching WC for 28 years, so believe me when I say, with 1 and 1/2 years, you've only scratched the surface, you have a lot more to discover.

lol. Amen. I too took exception to coffeerox ignorant ramblings, and I too shouldnt have taken the trollbait....ive just heard it all too many times before to have the patience for it.

(Edited version)

-Wing Chun is just not suited to that type of sport , gloves on the hands decrease the effectiveness of trapping and close range striking.
Fighting with no shoes on decreases the effect of low heel kicks to the knees and shins.

-I think it would take a very big shift in mind set from self defence to sport , the whole system would have to be re-jigged in order to make it more sports friendly.

-But its a bit like de-clawing a cat and expecting it to fight a dog , most of its ability to defend itself has been taken away.

Your post basically answers every "if Chun is so good why dont MMA guys use it?" argument ever made.

I dont think it would be possible to explain it any better man, honestly. These same points I have heard myself say time and time again (I also train BJJ so come across MMA guys a bit). Thankyou

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

It is important to note the following.

The training is supposed to be geared towards the situation.

If you train to defend yourself, most probably it will be against thug type, street puke offensives and self defense type situations. This means that they fight a certain way.

training against this type of attacker has certain specifics, including psychological aspects, like rage, lack of respect, surprise attacks and intent to KILL in the worst cases.

This is very different from a match and competition, where the intent is to dominate and win according to certain rules. Also, the opponents (notice "opponent" is different from "attacker") skill set is quite different from that of a street thug/assault criminal. The intent is different, the objectives are different, and the environment is different, physically and psychologically.

For example, trapping a guy that just wants to swing at you and hurt you, is different than trapping an opponent in a match where both parties know that they wanna "match" their skills in a game, so defense is focused on more. And the element of the surprise "sucker punch" is taken away, since the match begins with the bell.

You can train both, since each gives several attribute trainings. Yet you don't need to train for the ring if you just want the ability to survive a self defense type situation.

Hope that helps. There's a lot more, yet I have to get back to work and training.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado
Wing Chun SiFu
American Kenpo Professor
Licensed MMA Trainer / Practitioner
(Thus I am not really qualified to make an educated opinion)

 

[coffeerox]

Ain't that the truth! Thanks, Tez. Goodness knows, there has been an abundance of unqualified speculation flying about on this forum lately. I don't want to add to it.

But you did add to it, since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself.

I would also like to add a bit of online community wisdom. This comment right here is a prime example of arguing and debating online. It comes down to who is on your side and who isn't. Doesn't matter what the facts are.

Despite what many think (that we're not against each other, etc) we actually are, because you're not going to agree with me, you got your own set of beliefs. The point is making me believe what you believe (like religion) That is the goal of everything said here. If you happen to already agree, then you're part of that group.

About the unqualified speculation, welcome to 2010. Everybody makes unqualified speculations. The beauty of a real debate is that it becomes a learning experience. The problem is that people refuse to allow themselves to be enlightened by those they think are inferior to them (in some way, any way). You have to realize that people come from all walks of life and there is ALWAYS something to learn.

I do not believe that there is 1 single person that has a capacity to go beyond this like I do. In fact I don't know anybody that can.

 

[yak sao]

[quote=coffeerox;1317336]But you did add to it, since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself.


and yet you continue to weigh in on every single WC thread that comes along. A subject you know absolutely nothing about except what you have read in books or seen on video.

 

[dungeonworks]

Greetings.

It is important to note the following.

The training is supposed to be geared towards the situation.

If you train to defend yourself, most probably it will be against thug type, street puke offensives and self defense type situations. This means that they fight a certain way.

training against this type of attacker has certain specifics, including psychological aspects, like rage, lack of respect, surprise attacks and intent to KILL in the worst cases.

This is very different from a match and competition, where the intent is to dominate and win according to certain rules. Also, the opponents (notice "opponent" is different from "attacker") skill set is quite different from that of a street thug/assault criminal. The intent is different, the objectives are different, and the environment is different, physically and psychologically.

For example, trapping a guy that just wants to swing at you and hurt you, is different than trapping an opponent in a match where both parties know that they wanna "match" their skills in a game, so defense is focused on more. And the element of the surprise "sucker punch" is taken away, since the match begins with the bell.

You can train both, since each gives several attribute trainings. Yet you don't need to train for the ring if you just want the ability to survive a self defense type situation.

Hope that helps. There's a lot more, yet I have to get back to work and training.

Sincerely,

Juan Mercado
Wing Chun SiFu
American Kenpo Professor
Licensed MMA Trainer / Practitioner
(Thus I am not really qualified to make an educated opinion)

I like your postings Juan. You can add clairity to some things around here and in a tactful and respectful way.

Some people cannot understand that EVERY ART involved in the MMA game has to go by the same rules and be MODIFIED to fit within it's confines. I see a few things where Wing Chun would be good for MMA, but in no way am I saying the whole style. NO MODERN MMA FIGHTER USES JUST ONE STYLE ANYMORE SINCE UFC 4!!! MMA has become a freestyle form of sport fighting of it's own with bits here and there of many styles. It works in the street as well (against the stereotypical looking thug that karate schools around America picture while they train) and I can show you videos from Felony Fights video series, which is a NO RULES AND NO GEAR underground competition. Here are just two of them. These are truly anything goes with no hold or strike barred. Some of these actually have eye gouges and throat strikes to boot, but beware of some of the content as they include some horrid language (for those offended by such). These two are tame but still, what is offensive to one may not be to another.

FELONY FIGHTS MMA FIGHTER


mma fighter makes short work of chump


(Beware of some language use for those offended by such.)

 

[Tez3]

[quote=coffeerox;1317336]But you did add to it, since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself.


and yet you continue to weigh in on every single WC thread that comes along. A subject you know absolutely nothing about except what you have read in books or seen on video.

I 'do' MMA and I actually think any reasonably experienced martial artist is qualified to comment on it if they wish. It's not rocket science to a martial artist, there's kicks, punches, elbow, knees, takedowns and submissions along with KOs. You don't have to be be able to do them exactly the same way to know what you are seeing, WC as far as I'm learning punches with the hand a bit differently from a karateka who punches a bit differently from a boxer but you still know they are punches etc.

You can learn something from MMA whatever your style if you want to or you can just sit and enjoy the contests or you can ignore it altogether, getting pompous about it is pointless and only winds up good people as above. I think as pointed out above it's the height of cheek coming onto a specific section and lecturing them on their own style! Is WC any good for MMA, I don't know but I'm looking forward to finding out, I imagine it has things that will be useful, it may be the speed and the co-ordination, it may be more but always one should listen to the people experienced in actually doing the art, reading and watching videos just isn't going to cut it!

 

[dungeonworks]

....I think as pointed out above it's the height of cheek coming onto a specific section and lecturing them on their own style! Is WC any good for MMA, I don't know but I'm looking forward to finding out, I imagine it has things that will be useful, it may be the speed and the co-ordination, it may be more but always one should listen to the people experienced in actually doing the art, reading and watching videos just isn't going to cut it!

I heard that brother! :BSmeter:

I agree Tez, and am excited to see where it goes in MMA....speaking as a Chun student and MMA fan. I think the largest hurdle for WC in MMA is the time it takes to absorb and assimilate WC into a usable tool for MMA (...or street defense).

 

[Steve]

Ain't that the truth! Thanks, Tez. Goodness knows, there has been an abundance of unqualified speculation flying about on this forum lately. I don't want to add to it.

I've got opinions about how well some WC approaches could work in MMA... but they're just speculations until somebody better than I can get into the cage and try them out. My take is that the best MMA guys are great athletes, and they know what works. If WC concepts will help them win, somebody will pick up on it.

Great point.

I think that people should remember this not only when someone comments on Wing Chun, JKD or what have you. It seems to me that a lot of people are comfortable commenting on MMA, BJJ or any other style related to MMA that they only know by reputation and YouTube. This goes both ways, folks.

 

[matsu]

thanks for ur input steve.
i hope we as "group" dont look down or criticise om mma/bjj or other arts from an uneducated point of view. we are lucky to hae a few members that do several arts and are able to steer us in the right direction if we dont understand a concept or a reason.
i know my observations/comments on mma esp,are from the sofa and as such are just observations FROM that point of view. and i make them as such hoping someone else will clarify/correct and effectively teach me something i dont know.
thanks again
matsu

 

[KamonGuy2]

But you did add to it, since you're not MMA you're not qualified to comment on it however what you said is common sense so there's no way you can go wrong. Either way you contradicted yourself.

I would also like to add a bit of online community wisdom. This comment right here is a prime example of arguing and debating online. It comes down to who is on your side and who isn't. Doesn't matter what the facts are.

Despite what many think (that we're not against each other, etc) we actually are, because you're not going to agree with me, you got your own set of beliefs. The point is making me believe what you believe (like religion) That is the goal of everything said here. If you happen to already agree, then you're part of that group.

About the unqualified speculation, welcome to 2010. Everybody makes unqualified speculations. The beauty of a real debate is that it becomes a learning experience. The problem is that people refuse to allow themselves to be enlightened by those they think are inferior to them (in some way, any way). You have to realize that people come from all walks of life and there is ALWAYS something to learn.

I do not believe that there is 1 single person that has a capacity to go beyond this like I do. In fact I don't know anybody that can.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You are seriously lacking in both awareness of this forum and how good some of its members are at their particular martial art, as well as lacking in any kind of humility. I have arguments/debates all the time with people on here, whether I like them or not. Most of its members have the same attitude

I have known Geezer through here for a couple of years now and find him to be a very insightful fellow. Therefore, you will probably find that people do 'weigh in' on his side.

 

[MJS]

Just an FYI, coffeerox will no longer be able to reply to any messages here.

However, please do not let that stop this thread, as it seems to be going well.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Doesn't matter what the facts are.

Actually, yes it does and you are also rather guilty of what you are accusing other of doing on this point.

Do you train MMA?

For how long have you trained MMA?

Do you train at an MMA school or is this self training?

Do you train Wing Chun?

For how long have you trained Wing Chun?

Do you train at an Wing Chun school or is this self training?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Just an FYI, coffeerox will no longer be able to reply to any messages here.

However, please do not let that stop this thread, as it seems to be going well.

Oh sure NOW you tell me :uhyeah: