Wing Chun Misconceptions

[zepedawingchun]

In the 'Time Does Not Equal Skill' thread, during one of the many banters back and forth between me and coffeerox, he made a comment about Wing Chun that irked me. It irked me because I hear it a lot from people who have never officially trained in the system at all or trained for a short period of time and quit. I wanted to comment about it, but found the thread was getting too volitile. Eventually, it was locked by an Administrator.

Here is what he said:

Quote 'Without the ties to Wing Chun, I can focus on fighting and become proficient in that. I don't need you telling me that I can only learn sensitivity from a Wing Chun teacher when I've thrown that entire system out the door and instead focus on accurate striking, footwork and evasion. The best MMA fighters don't use any trapping at all and they are successful.' unquote.

The first line tells me he doesn’t know or understand the art. The same with a lot of other people, they don’t know the truth about the art. Much like JKD, it is a concepts based art, not driven by particular techniques. Once you learn the system, you ARE free to express your martial arts in any way you see fit. It does not bind you or hold you to any one thing, how can it? It is a tool, a means to an end, nothing more. You fight the way you want. It has suggestions with ideas on how to punch, parry, move, ideas that we call concepts (every art does that, even JKD), but you are not bound by it in anyway, shape, or form. Since it is an art form, you can express it anyway you want.

Even Bruce Lee agreed you must have some sort of form, a proper way or proper mechanics for a technique to be executed to be efficient. I see it from JKD practitioners all the time. JKD has an idea of how to throw a proper punch, kick, parry, etc. But it doesn't command that you use the punch in this way or that way, or in a fight use it this way or that way. You use the technique anyway you want. Wing Chun is the same. It has proper form to a punch or kick to make the technique you use more efficient, but doesn’t tell you that you have to do it like this when this punch comes, or use this hand position only when that technique it thrown at you, etc. You are free to use it or do it whatever way you please.

Wing Chun may have this drill we call chi sao, something which some other arts may have or tries to emulate (Kali has hubud, tai chi has push hands). But like the rest of the system, it gives you parameters to help you learn and develop sensitivity skills. But when you develop that sensitivity, in the end, you are free to use it anyway you want. That's why in the thread ‘Are the Best Chunners Chinese?’ we saw so many different ways to chi sao. In the links, everyone had their own idea on how to chi sao, but it was done several different ways. None of them is right, or wrong, just not the way you, or I, or some other Wing Chun lines might do it.

As for trapping, just because the best MMA fighters don’t use it, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t want to. The comment about MMA fighters not using it tells me coffeerox doesn’t know when, or understand how, or why, to use trapping. Anytime you can get an opponent’s hands immobilized momentarily and hit them at will, wouldn’t you want to do that? Ask any MMA fighter, I bet they’d love to get a hit or two on their opponent without getting hit back. MMA fighters don’t use trapping most times because they don’t know how. Plus, I can’t trap you if you won’t let me. Trapping happens because you set yourself up for it and I notice the conditions are right for me to trap you. That’s all. You can’t force trapping.

Wing Chun is not a restricting art. The only thing restricting about it is you, your idea on how to use it, and that you have to use it this way or that way, you have to do this or have to do that. Nothing could be further from the truth then that statement.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

People think MMA fighters are the 'top dog' in martial arts. They aren't. They train fog competition, which has rules, limits and referees. Wing Chun doesn't train you to win a belt or trophy, but a life-or-death fight. Self defense != sport competition, a fact often missed sadly.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Zepedawingchun, your passion for wing chun is clear and that is good to see. Whilst this is like John Candy telling someone to lose weight, I would say don’t get too wound up by posters on these kind of forums

Over the years I have seen guys who have insisted that cage fighting is the ultimate etc, and yet they end up short in street confrontations because they weren’t prepared for it. MMA fighters and competition guys are usually very good at what they do and are often quite humble guys, but many do not realise the difference between sport and confrontational training.

I will be the first to admit how impressed I am with a lot of the MMA guys work ethic and conditioning (ie the training is very intensive and full on). Yet no matter how built someone is, it doesn’t stop things happening like thumbs in eyes, chops to the throat, ears being grabbed etc

Wing chun works for the average guy where a lot of MMA wouldn’t (the average guy does not want to train everyday for 4 hours, ending up with bruises everywhere).
The average guy needs a good art that deals with situations sensibly and with ease of movement

Wing chun offers more than just sensitivity. A lot of schools do in fact train very intensively, although I would not claim that chunners do as much exercise/conditioning as cage fighters. The reason chunners do not need to work on that much conditioning, is simply that a cage fighter is looking to work through the rounds and know that he will take a bash here and there. A wing chunner aims not to let the fight de-evolve into a brawl, but to finish very quickly

There is always a need to expand on an art and look for new ideas to keep it fresh, but I still believe in the idea of having a core art that you can refer back to. I myself train in around 7 arts, but always refer back to wing chun (its what Im best at)

I think Coffeerox strayed over to MartialTalk from another forum (you know the one….) and should perhaps go back there, where the arguments he seeks will be met with open arms
Just a friendly suggestion…

 

[Xue Sheng]

Also one must take into account that many of the most boisterous MMA defenders/attackers on many MA forums are couch MMAists with great expertise in what they see on TV or what they read somewhere.


Many of the actual MMA people I have talked to or meant are pretty good people who remind me of what TMA training (and banter) use to be.

 

[Steve]

People think MMA fighters are the 'top dog' in martial arts. They aren't. They train fog competition, which has rules, limits and referees. Wing Chun doesn't train you to win a belt or trophy, but a life-or-death fight. Self defense != sport competition, a fact often missed sadly.

Bob, you train Wing Chun? I didn't know that. I thought you were an eskrima guy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Bob, you train Wing Chun? I didn't know that. I thought you were an eskrima guy.

I've dabbled a bit in the past, and we had a WC instructor at one of our meets a few years ago. Done more reading about it and chatting with a couple of much more experienced folk over the years though.

 

[dungeonworks]

In the 'Time Does Not Equal Skill' thread, during one of the many banters back and forth between me and coffeerox, he made a comment about Wing Chun that irked me. It irked me because I hear it a lot from people who have never officially trained in the system at all or trained for a short period of time and quit. I wanted to comment about it, but found the thread was getting too volitile. Eventually, it was locked by an Administrator.

Here is what he said:

Quote 'Without the ties to Wing Chun, I can focus on fighting and become proficient in that. I don't need you telling me that I can only learn sensitivity from a Wing Chun teacher when I've thrown that entire system out the door and instead focus on accurate striking, footwork and evasion. The best MMA fighters don't use any trapping at all and they are successful.' unquote.

The first line tells me he doesn’t know or understand the art. The same with a lot of other people, they don’t know the truth about the art. Much like JKD, it is a concepts based art, not driven by particular techniques. Once you learn the system, you ARE free to express your martial arts in any way you see fit. It does not bind you or hold you to any one thing, how can it? It is a tool, a means to an end, nothing more. You fight the way you want. It has suggestions with ideas on how to punch, parry, move, ideas that we call concepts (every art does that, even JKD), but you are not bound by it in anyway, shape, or form. Since it is an art form, you can express it anyway you want.

Even Bruce Lee agreed you must have some sort of form, a proper way or proper mechanics for a technique to be executed to be efficient. I see it from JKD practitioners all the time. JKD has an idea of how to throw a proper punch, kick, parry, etc. But it doesn't command that you use the punch in this way or that way, or in a fight use it this way or that way. You use the technique anyway you want. Wing Chun is the same. It has proper form to a punch or kick to make the technique you use more efficient, but doesn’t tell you that you have to do it like this when this punch comes, or use this hand position only when that technique it thrown at you, etc. You are free to use it or do it whatever way you please.

Wing Chun may have this drill we call chi sao, something which some other arts may have or tries to emulate (Kali has hubud, tai chi has push hands). But like the rest of the system, it gives you parameters to help you learn and develop sensitivity skills. But when you develop that sensitivity, in the end, you are free to use it anyway you want. That's why in the thread ‘Are the Best Chunners Chinese?’ we saw so many different ways to chi sao. In the links, everyone had their own idea on how to chi sao, but it was done several different ways. None of them is right, or wrong, just not the way you, or I, or some other Wing Chun lines might do it.

As for trapping, just because the best MMA fighters don’t use it, doesn’t mean they wouldn’t want to. The comment about MMA fighters not using it tells me coffeerox doesn’t know when, or understand how, or why, to use trapping. Anytime you can get an opponent’s hands immobilized momentarily and hit them at will, wouldn’t you want to do that? Ask any MMA fighter, I bet they’d love to get a hit or two on their opponent without getting hit back. MMA fighters don’t use trapping most times because they don’t know how. Plus, I can’t trap you if you won’t let me. Trapping happens because you set yourself up for it and I notice the conditions are right for me to trap you. That’s all. You can’t force trapping.

Wing Chun is not a restricting art. The only thing restricting about it is you, your idea on how to use it, and that you have to use it this way or that way, you have to do this or have to do that. Nothing could be further from the truth then that statement.

I am going to differ with you on the MMA not having trapping. They sure do have trapping as does other styles such as BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai...ect. Is not a crucifix a trap? How about when somebody (say Anderson Silva) latches on a Thai clinch from hell and pressures the shoulders with the elbows? BJJ guys trap more than anyone in MMA that I have seen, although I believe they call it "isolating", like when they are isolating an arm setting up an armbar. Guys trap hands BIG TIME when they are in a tight guard underneath a smashing machine of a fighter such as Brock Lesnar or Mark Kerr, or Mark Coleman (going old skool! ). It isn't "Textbook Wing Chun Trapping" but traps are there.

As far as the perceived attitude of the average Joe Blow MMA fan, well, you have that in any sport...ESPECIALLY if we are talking any Detroit team fan and you add BEER! LOL

To me, MMA is my favorite sport. As with ALL SPORTS, some will like it while others will not. Sometimes we give far too much weight to the Couch Potato MMA fans that frequent internet forums and post like they even remotely know what heck they are talking about. I have been hooked since UFC #1 and have only missed a few PPV's during the near death dark ages prior to Zuffa reviving it from the mismanagement and misdirection of Roiron Gracie and Semaphore Entertainment Group (SEG). It is not that far off from a real street fight when compared to other combat sports, so most non martial artist/boxers/kickboxers/wrestlers and others that have never traded hands ever will see MMA "as real as it gets!". It is trendy to watch and wear the UFC, Affliction, or TapOut gear as well, so people have some odd urge to "represent". I handle such people by engaging them in conversation. If they seem like they are willing to hear me out, it usually ends up educating them that MMA is not the be all end all of fighting, although it is best competition we have in a controlled environment IMVHO. It's the Yin/Yang of when others do not understand Wing Chun and mindlessly dismiss it....just from the other side.

Like I said, I really enjoy MMA. I really miss the early years when it was style vs style, but the evolved sport it became is fun for me to watch. It helps me blow off steam the same way an avid NFL fan does watching their team play.

Excellent post and thread Zepeda! As far as MMA guys dismissing Wing Chun, I believe those days are numbered. I have met three local MMA fighters in the last few weeks that are looking into and/or training Wing Chun and one other that is training Jun Fan (Bruce Lee's early JKD curriculum). As I have been seeing myself, Wing Chun is an art that will make what you may already know that much better. Heck, of all things, Wing Chun has improved my ground game quite a bit on the sensitivity (BJJ uses their own "acquired" sensitivity while it's curriculum to Chunner's).

Just my $.02 on the credit card.

 

[dungeonworks]

Also one must take into account that many of the most boisterous MMA defenders/attackers on many MA forums are couch MMAists with great expertise in what they see on TV or what they read somewhere.


Many of the actual MMA people I have talked to or meant are pretty good people who remind me of what TMA training (and banter) use to be.

....and still can be in some circles. Just like any sport's fans, you have those that know more than the coach or caddy!

 

[matsu]

wow...great first post.
i just hope that coffeedude doesnt take this as a personal attack,it was so not!!
because this was a very passionate insightful paragraph into the concepts of wing chun.
thank you for posting and i hope "everyone" takes in the essence of what was said.
matsu

 

[zepedawingchun]

I am going to differ with you on the MMA not having trapping. They sure do have trapping as does other styles such as BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai...ect. Is not a crucifix a trap? How about when somebody (say Anderson Silva) latches on a Thai clinch from hell and pressures the shoulders with the elbows? BJJ guys trap more than anyone in MMA that I have seen, although I believe they call it "isolating", like when they are isolating an arm setting up an armbar. Guys trap hands BIG TIME when they are in a tight guard underneath a smashing machine of a fighter such as Brock Lesnar or Mark Kerr, or Mark Coleman (going old skool! ). It isn't "Textbook Wing Chun Trapping" but traps are there.

Before this goes any further, let me clarify the no trapping comment. I did not say there was no trapping done by MMA fighter. It was the person I quoted who stated that. I see it all the time and understand it. However, it is like dungeonworks stated, it isn't textbook WC trapping. It doesn't matter how it gets done, it's there.

Kamon Guy, I know I shouldn't get too involved bickering on a forum. But after the insults thrown my way, I can't let anything get by without clarification. Besides, I like a good fight and enjoy getting under some people's skin.

 

[mook jong man]

The thing with trapping is that it is not something that can be learned overnight , it takes years like chi sau because it is an element of chi sau.

If we take a very simple trap such as a Pak sau and punch for example , very simple because the lead hand of the attacker is taken out of the equation for that split second needed for your hand to hit through.

Even with this seemingly simple trap it can always be refined and polished , you will notice with novices that they will sometimes use slight one- two motion when they attack the guard of their opponent.

Whereas the experienced students hands will spring out simultaneously with great force with the Pak itself almost becoming an impact weapon on the attackers wrists.

I've said it once and I'll say it again the best defence against trapping is good rolling , don't give them anything to work with like crossing your hands over the centreline and it will be very difficult for you to be trapped.

So in closing I believe the skill of trapping takes years to perfect under a qualified master , as does the skill of perfecting the counters to the various traps , something I find more enjoyable than executing the traps themselves.

Remember it is relatively easy to learn to hit someone , but to learn to stop someone hitting you is a lot harder.

 

[coffeerox]

The thing with trapping is that it is not something that can be learned overnight , it takes years like chi sau because it is an element of chi sau.

Exactly, that is why I made the comment. Since I can't learn how to master trapping by myself then it's not going to be included in what I do until I can be professionally taught.

I do have a few basic traps I learned when I *was* self training however I've adopted the JKD concept for trapping which is that it's a byproduct, not the main focus of combat. Because it's a by-product, I need to first learn strikes and conditioning the body.

It's really not all that uncommon to find a combat style that doesn't trap, or trap in a very limited fashion. Like Chinaboxer said, if you're young and fast, you can hit them before they hit you, you don't need trapping in that regard. Boxing in fact has more evasion than trapping and that system works, we all know it. That is one system that I am interested in signing up for.

Lastly, don't take what I've said to heart. This is what I do, this is not what you do, so don't be concerned about it. Lots of people are into "external" martial arts, me included so I'm not really being unique, it might seem so b/c we are on the Wing Chun board but in the grand scope of things, it's really a common occurrence.

They sure do have trapping as does other styles such as BJJ, wrestling, Muay Thai...ect.

They sure do, but I said what I said because trapping as we know it from Wing Chun (and extent, JFJKD) doesn't really exist in current state of MMA.

Wing Chun is not a restricting art. The only thing restricting about it is you, your idea on how to use it, and that you have to use it this way or that way, you have to do this or have to do that. Nothing could be further from the truth then that statement.

Of course. It's not a restricting art. I know that FULL well. The concepts alone have gotten me far and I haven't had a teacher yet!! What I meant by that comment is that, Chi Sao is something that I cannot train by myself. You all have made that PERFECTLY clear. I've also known from the start, that I cannot do this without someone else and that I needed professional training. So it's pretty obvious why I made that decision to instead focus on striking, footwork, etc, something that I can do by myself for the time being. Is it a bad thing? No. Does that mean I don't understand the art? No. Hell no. It is BECAUSE I understand it that I said what I said.

This thread was made because as an opponent, you don't listen closely to what I say and instead you focus on fighting it, which I can tell you as an experienced community manager, is wrong. Listen to me, and there's more to what I have to say then what's there.

The comment about MMA fighters not using it tells me coffeerox doesn’t know when, or understand how, or why, to use trapping.

Wrong. The comment about MMA fighters not using it is because they don't. Not in the way that Wing Chun or JFJKD does it. It's not because *I* don't understand it. I do understand it. So all my research for 1 year and 1/2 has been for nothing?

 

[zepedawingchun]

This thread was made because as an opponent, you don't listen closely to what I say and instead you focus on fighting it, which I can tell you as an experienced community manager, is wrong. Listen to me, and there's more to what I have to say then what's there.

Now see what I write and understand, I was never your opponent, that is your take on it. And that is your problem. You see everyone who disagrees with you as an adversary. I was expressing my point of view until you came back to me with disrespect. Go back and check, I can read. If you like, I can point out where you became disrespectful first in the above mentioned thread.

And me having been in management for 20 years, I think I read pretty good. If you say there's more there than what you've written, then write it. Don't just put half *** statements down, expecting people to read between the lines and guessing at what you meant to say. You need to make the point clear so people understand what you're trying to say. If you're being misunderstood, then you need to explain it better.

With you stating 'will free me to be a better fighter', I took it to imply (in the context you wrote at the time) you doing Wing Chun will restrict you from being a better fighter, so I (zepeda) can keep my precious Wing Chun art and reputation, and that you would be doing something that looks closer to JKD. That is the way I took it and I think a few others did too. If that was your implication, then it tells me you don't understand the system. Therefore the reason for this thread. If that was not your intention, then you should have clarified it a bit better.

So all my research for 1 year and 1/2 has been for nothing?

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know, you will have to decide for yourself. What you need to do is focus training with one sifu and only one sifu, and not use information from this online study website, or that online site, or someone elses online website in the UK, or Austrailia, or the USA, and so on and so forth. Here's why, example, the other day during chi sao practice, I corrected a student's tan sao. He was not putting the inside of his forearm or elbow touching his centerline when rolling between bong to tan sao like he should. He was stopping it at his quarterline. He'd been training with me for 4 years, so I know he knows how to do it correctly. I corrected him and he came back with 'so and so said I should do it this way'. Immediately I said 'is so and so teaching this class?'. The corrected student said no sifu, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be disrespectful, it's your class. I said 'he does it that way because he is a broad chested person and can't get his elbow completely in the center correctly. You on the other hand can get it in correctly. He has to make it work for him as best he can. When everyone does chi sao with him, they can't hit over his tan sao, but that is why I hit him all the time, his elbow position is incorrect in relationship to my fook sao which glides over his tan without resistance because his position is wrong'. The point is everyone does everything in WC a little bit different. You need to follow one way and one way only until you get really proficient with it. Then you can decide to do it this way or that way, any way you want. Doing hand positions the way I tell you, is slightly different than geezer might tell you, which is slightly different than Kamon Guy will tell you, which may be slightly different than mook jong man might tell you. Learning hand positions from several different sourses is confusing and counter productive to gaining the hand skills needed to use the system. Too many cooks spoil the brouth.

I've been actively training and teaching WC for 28 years, so believe me when I say, with 1 and 1/2 years, you've only scratched the surface, you have a lot more to discover.

 

[matsu]

and that was a perfect articulate answer.
zepede...... i,m emigrating to come and train with you mate!

matsu

 

[Tez3]

I don't use trapping in MMA...because I don't know how to. Saying it doesn't work in MMA or even comparing anythng badly to MMA really, really,really annoys me! No wonder MMA and its fighters get bad names. However as I've just had my third sesson in JKD (there's no WC class near at all) I'm at least one half a footstep on the road to finding out. I've enjoyed it so far and enough to be paying my insurance and signing up properly next week.
I don't believe that one can understand an art unless one actually does it, all the reading in the world won't teach you what an instructor can. That goes for a great many things, I can read up about being a surgeon, be word perfect in how to operate but I'm betting no one will want me operating on them!

 

[matsu]

hi tez
when i watch ufc or some of the older pride stuff. i frequently talk to the tv as if it were the third person in the room lol.
and i,m saying ah he should have pinned that down or trapped that arm and come over the top. or chopped there.... very easy for me to see and say as an armchair critic...
and even more so with elbows, no one uses elbows as we are taught and they would be devastating in the right situation..
the more i watch the more i wonder if just the ufc/mma guys i have seen thus far have not been introduced/experienced real wing chun and some of its core principles.
as they step toe to toe its very much a point scoring attitude-similar to my karate days. bounce in bang and get out and the other guys is always backing off....
no one ive seen so far punches to bridge,thus staying their ground and finding a way in up and close as we do.
they get tangles and caught up but it seems very much more bjj style trying to control and not wing chun control.

as a relative beginner i may be off base and i certainly couldnt do what they do but i honestly think if they tangled with my sifu he would just tie them up,bring them in close and finish them very quickly with just few simple wing chun principles that very few if any mma guys seem to know or use.
i dont think mma has a bad name. i think we all have a huge respect for them, they are versed in so many arts/techniques and are supreme athletes and it is a sport i very much enjoy but i do not think its the complete fighting "ART" that most people honour it with. i think a good martial artist of any art could compete with a good mma guy if all rules being equal.
just my 0.02
matsu

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So all my research for 1 year and 1/2 has been for nothing?

I've got 10 years of research under my belt on Wing Chun. I don't claim to understand it. Zepeda, Geezer, etc who have years of actual serious training however, just might know what they talk about. I trust their insights and experiences more than I do mine.

 

[Tez3]

hi tez
when i watch ufc or some of the older pride stuff. i frequently talk to the tv as if it were the third person in the room lol.
and i,m saying ah he should have pinned that down or trapped that arm and come over the top. or chopped there.... very easy for me to see and say as an armchair critic...
and even more so with elbows, no one uses elbows as we are taught and they would be devastating in the right situation..
the more i watch the more i wonder if just the ufc/mma guys i have seen thus far have not been introduced/experienced real wing chun and some of its core principles.
as they step toe to toe its very much a point scoring attitude-similar to my karate days. bounce in bang and get out and the other guys is always backing off....
no one ive seen so far punches to bridge,thus staying their ground and finding a way in up and close as we do.
they get tangles and caught up but it seems very much more bjj style trying to control and not wing chun control.

as a relative beginner i may be off base and i certainly couldnt do what they do but i honestly think if they tangled with my sifu he would just tie them up,bring them in close and finish them very quickly with just few simple wing chun principles that very few if any mma guys seem to know or use.
i dont think mma has a bad name. i think we all have a huge respect for them, they are versed in so many arts/techniques and are supreme athletes and it is a sport i very much enjoy but i do not think its the complete fighting "ART" that most people honour it with. i think a good martial artist of any art could compete with a good mma guy if all rules being equal.
just my 0.02
matsu

I don't understand what you mean about the rules being equal? The rules in UK MMA don't give the advantage to any one type of fighter and are specifically for MMA. To compete one would need to be able to match your opponent on the ground and on the floor. I've seen fighters use elbows to great effect, they are a staple of both karate and MT. Have a watch out for the UK MMA fights, you'll see a lot more techniques in there, look out too for Sami Berik's fights, he's WC.
When watching MMA it's always easier to see stuff the fighters should be doing lol, thats why the fighters need good corner people to help spot things their opponent is doing and such like.
I would hesitate to say any one particular style will beat an MMA fighter, one of the best things about MMA is that you learn to adapt very quickly to someone else's style. If WC alone could beat a fighter I think Sami wouldn't have trained in the ground work etc. I will have to ask him. I do think techniques from WC will more than likely be useful though as yet I don't know which ones, not all but then not all techniques in any style will help in an MMA competition.

 

[matsu]

hey tez..the rules do apply when i wouldnt be allowed to stomp on his knee as he adanced or lift kick to the groin or thumb in the eye as he tried to take me to the floor, or nice chop across the throat as he tried to tie my hands in a bjj grapple. these are all very basic wing chun moves i have been taught from day one. so the rules of the ring and the fact i would be wearing gloves would limit me if i played only with wing chun.
i wont take anything away from the mma guys, as i said before love the sport and huge respect for every single one of them.

and i know from when i,m training, that a fraction of a second after i missed an opportunity when sparring at 50% speed how difficult it is for a competitor to not see the openings as well as a coach or a sofa critic such as myself so that def wasnt a critiscm,
it was an observation/question that do they know how many wing chun techniques could improve their game.
i have seen some great elbow shots but they were not wing chun elbow moves to my mind.and i did karate for quite a while so i can compare the two/three styles without being bias.
and i will def keep my eye out for sami berik.
thanks for the debate.. its all good.
i learn,perhaps even more so if i,m proved incorrct with my observations.
matsu

 

[Tez3]

hey tez..the rules do apply when i wouldnt be allowed to stomp on his knee as he adanced or lift kick to the groin or thumb in the eye as he tried to take me to the floor, or nice chop across the throat as he tried to tie my hands in a bjj grapple. these are all very basic wing chun moves i have been taught from day one. so the rules of the ring and the fact i would be wearing gloves would limit me if i played only with wing chun.
i wont take anything away from the mma guys, as i said before love the sport and huge respect for every single one of them.

and i know from when i,m training, that a fraction of a second after i missed an opportunity when sparring at 50% speed how difficult it is for a competitor to not see the openings as well as a coach or a sofa critic such as myself so that def wasnt a critiscm,
it was an observation/question that do they know how many wing chun techniques could improve their game.
i have seen some great elbow shots but they were not wing chun elbow moves to my mind.and i did karate for quite a while so i can compare the two/three styles without being bias.
and i will def keep my eye out for sami berik.
thanks for the debate.. its all good.
i learn,perhaps even more so if i,m proved incorrct with my observations.
matsu

Well, the rules apply because it's a competition and with few exceptions we all like each other too much to cause each other damage We enjoy the competition, its a game of mind and body. I'm sure there's loads we could do to hurt each other but despite what some think that's not really the name of the game.

I think everyone thinks that MMA fighters should train in their style to improve their game but only the very few pro fighters we have could afford the time and effort involved in training as much as would be needed to integrate all styles. The rest of us can only train as much as most martial artists do and so must limit what we learn to what we know works. Ah well, when I win the lottery...........