Wing Chun is an Internal System

[Yoshiyahu]

I respect you beliefs...But my sifu often stress the importance of Chi...now there may WC lineages who have no need to teach the truth about Chi...They come off as mere external arts like Karate...but WC is not a hard style...I can show you videos of the Chi Side of WC. But that I feel is pointless...I shared with Xue many of the sayings of many of the lineages fore fathers...No one seems to believe...


Well let me give you link....look through the kuit kuen. You will see many sayings concerning the Chi....

Scroll down the different lineages an read what it says about Chi and using internal power over phyiscal strength.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#General


Seven Sayings about Chi

*Chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back

*Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power

*Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

*Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

*To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

*Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

*Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.


Some Internal Principals for fighting

Ying Siu Bo Fa, Ying Fu Sung Yung - (Structure neutralizes, footwork dissolves, the opponents can be handled with less effort spent).

Yuk Jui But Yuk San - (Use your body mass by converging rather than spreading out body resources inefficiently).

Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.

Storing energy resembles pulling a bow. Releasing power is like shooting an arrow.

Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.

Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent’s force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him.

So we see very internal aspects to actual combat...interesting.

But when WC fights it uses Internal Principals for fighting. When it trains it uses both External and Internal...Although my training was mainly internal even the external was to build the internal. Punching the Wall bag is not like dropping down force on sand bag to develop Iron Sand Palm. Nor is carring Jars filled with sand or water unlike the Bagua man carrying bricks on his shoulders and arms to develop strength through breathing and relaxing...

You may disagree...but the more I study and learn Tai Chi Yang Style...The more I see similiarites...Even many of the hand motions of the Yang Style are just Wing Chun. The Difference is the flow is seen more in most Yang Styles...Your forms have more range of motion than Wing Chun...Reason being Wing Chun doesn't seek to move that much because all its fighting is done with in very close quarters...this is Kung of Wing Chun. Fighti up close and personal. Wing Chun usually stays in Chi Sau distance and never goes farther than pushhands distance.

In fact many of aspects and applications you have in Push hands Wing Chun also uses...Wing Chun attacks their opponents structure. The uproot or off balance as well. But your aim may be not to strike but to simply throw or up root or take down...Wing Chun does that too...But original Tai Chi is striking art as well!

"Yoshi" I know that you come from a different lineage, so I can't comment on your training. But the WC/WT I have studied (on and off) for the last thirty years has been described as descended from the tradition of soft, or "yielding", Southern Chinese short-bridge, narrow-stance fighting arts.

Perhaps the confusion comes from the term "soft" to describe the yielding nature of what I consider to be good WC/WT. But "soft " is not the same as "internal".

WC/WT is supposed to be a practical, no nonsense art that can be quickly learned and applied (although it takes a lifetime to master). Furthermore, it's techniques and theories can be explained in terms of basic physics. It's emphasis on yielding and sensitivity, is just an extension of these theories. I find nothing in any of these theories that requires a belief in chi, or fits with the classic descriptions of and "internal" art.

Now, as others have said, elements of "internal" training may be present in basically "external arts", but that doesn't make the style one of the classical internal arts. Of course you are welcome to insist, but in doing so, you stand alone.

Personally, If you want an informed opinion on the subject, I'd listen to Xue.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Maybe your teacher is different and like you believes it to be internal.

A common theme in the internal arts is its deep connection with Taoism.

Bagua-I ching

Hsing yi-Five element

Tai chi chuan-Yin and Yang

I don't know what you mean by walking circle.

You will find similarites in just about every style.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I respect you beliefs...But my sifu often stress the importance of Chi...now there may WC lineages who have no need to teach the truth about Chi...They come off as mere external arts like Karate...but WC is not a hard style...I can show you videos of the Chi Side of WC. But that I feel is pointless...I shared with Xue many of the sayings of many of the lineages fore fathers...No one seems to believe...


Well let me give you link....look through the kuit kuen. You will see many sayings concerning the Chi....

Scroll down the different lineages an read what it says about Chi and using internal power over phyiscal strength.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.KuenKuit#General


Seven Sayings about Chi

*Chi comes out of the Tan Tien, and travels along the waist, the thighs, and the back

*Siu Lim Tau mainly trains internal power

*Fill the Tan Tien with chi and distribute the strength to all parts of the body.

*Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma - Train the chi by controlling the Tan Tien.

*To release chi from the Tan Tien, will enable proper release of power.

*Internally develop the chi; externally train the tendons, bones and muscles.

*Store mental energy with the mind. Move chi with mental energy. Exert strength with chi. Generate power with strength.


Some Internal Principals for fighting

Ying Siu Bo Fa, Ying Fu Sung Yung - (Structure neutralizes, footwork dissolves, the opponents can be handled with less effort spent).

Yuk Jui But Yuk San - (Use your body mass by converging rather than spreading out body resources inefficiently).

Power is generated from the joints. Strength originates from the heels.

In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.

Storing energy resembles pulling a bow. Releasing power is like shooting an arrow.

Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.

Hand techniques must follow the Yin Yang principle. Strength must be applied with inner power. There is a counteraction to every attack.

If the opponent grasps your arm bridge, do not oppose him with brute force. Go with the opponent’s force and change into rolling hands. Turn around the situation to control him.

So we see very internal aspects to actual combat...interesting.

But when WC fights it uses Internal Principals for fighting. When it trains it uses both External and Internal...Although my training was mainly internal even the external was to build the internal. Punching the Wall bag is not like dropping down force on sand bag to develop Iron Sand Palm. Nor is carring Jars filled with sand or water unlike the Bagua man carrying bricks on his shoulders and arms to develop strength through breathing and relaxing...

You may disagree...but the more I study and learn Tai Chi Yang Style...The more I see similiarites...Even many of the hand motions of the Yang Style are just Wing Chun. The Difference is the flow is seen more in most Yang Styles...Your forms have more range of motion than Wing Chun...Reason being Wing Chun doesn't seek to move that much because all its fighting is done with in very close quarters...this is Kung of Wing Chun. Fighti up close and personal. Wing Chun usually stays in Chi Sau distance and never goes farther than pushhands distance.

In fact many of aspects and applications you have in Push hands Wing Chun also uses...Wing Chun attacks their opponents structure. The uproot or off balance as well. But your aim may be not to strike but to simply throw or up root or take down...Wing Chun does that too...But original Tai Chi is striking art as well!

Interesting thing here is that there is nothing in this that says "Wing Chun is Neijia". There is a lot here that says Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinese Martial Art.

I to trained Wing Chun and I train Sanda and I see a lot of similarities to Xingyiquan and Taijiquan in some aspects of Sanda training and it is most certainly not a neijia style it does have its roots in CMA however.

And your whole push hands justification is meaningless since just about every single CMA style has push hands and just about every single CMA style uses that to attack the opponent’s structure to uproot and/or off balance... even Sanda which is not Neijia and as a matter of fact not even considered Traditional CMA.

I now have more questions to ask.

How long have you trained Wing Chun?

What branch of Wing Chun are we talking about here, who was your teacher’s teacher?

How long have you trained Taiji?

What is your taiji teachers background; what other styles does he/she train, what did they train first and who was their taiji teacher and what style is it and what forms of that style are we talking about?

And again what is it you find lacking in Wing Chun that fills you with such a need to associate it with Neijia?

 

[geezer]

...but WC is not a hard style...I can show you videos of the Chi Side of WC.

No need to show the videos, "Yoshi", I've witnessed some pretty amazing "chi" displays by my former sifu. Ever hear of the cinnabar palm? Still, I'd love to view some good video-clips anyway!

....look through the kuit kuen. You will see many sayings concerning the Chi...

It seems to me that most of the "kuit" refer more to concepts of structure and physics that can be understood and applied without referencing "chi"... although that may be another way to conceptualize it.

Scroll down the different lineages an read what it says about Chi and using internal power over phyiscal strength.

I repeat what I said before. Being soft, yielding, and borrowing your opponent's force, rather than using your own brute force, is indeed central to Wing Chun/Tsun. But "soft" is not the same as "internal". A system may be "external" in its foundation, and yet soft and yielding in its application!

You may disagree...but the more I study and learn Tai Chi Yang Style...The more I see similiarites...Even many of the hand motions of the Yang Style are just Wing Chun...

Actually, "Yoshi", I do agree with you completely on this point! I find that Wing Chun/Tsun at it's highest and most sophisticated level does exhibit those taiji-like traits. I've found this to be true of many martial arts. At that ethereal level that is true mastery, the internal manifests even in so called "external arts". But then this has also been said before. At any rate, I accept your perspective, though distinct from my own. Now, I'd still love to see those video-clips you promised! Thanks, in advance --Steve

 

[naneek]

geezer i am intrigued what is cinnabar palm? i never heard of it before, thanks in advance for your reply

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Your Questions answered

I now have more questions to ask.

How long have you trained Wing Chun? From 16-32 So about 16 years

What branch of Wing Chun are we talking about here, who was your teacher’s teacher? Lineage is Yuen Kay San. Teachers Teacher was Robert Lee Macfield and Mau Chang.

How long have you trained Taiji? Now consistently about six months. But I Have studied Tai Chi for some years. I just didn't actively practice it. I been focusing more on my Wing Chun for last ten years. I did a little Tai Chi when I was like in my early twenties. But I started to focus more on the WC. So I left for awhile.

What is your taiji teachers background; Well The Sifu is Chinese. He is strickly Yang Style Specialist. But He Taught my Wing Chun Sifu The Tai Chi. Along with my Wing Chun Sifu's Sihing. My Wing Chun Sifu has been doing Tai Chi consistently since the 90's. Now he is ranked so to speak so the Mr.Sam(Chinese Sifu) Has him to go over the forms an teach the younger students. Mr.Sam speaks a little english. So my Sifu had to study Cantonese so he could converse better with him. But over time Mr.Sam english has gotten alot better. He very old so he has my WC sifu teach the class.



what other styles does he/she train, My Sifu practices Bagua, Tai Chi, Xing Yi Quan, Wing Chun, He also practices Five Animals Five Elements. Those are the styles I remember.



what did they train first and who was their taiji teacher and what style is it and what forms of that style are we talking about? My Sifu very first style when he was a kid was probably Tae Kwon Do from what I remember. As for Mr.Sam he is Yang Stylist strickly.

And again what is it you find lacking in Wing Chun that fills you with such a need to associate it with Neijia? Well I don't think its lacking. Its just its principals don't follow what I feel a external art should be...Its not hard enough. An the concern over Chi. An my studies which show WC as soft or internal style?

Interesting thing here is that there is nothing in this that says "Wing Chun is Neijia". There is a lot here that says Wing Chun is a Traditional Chinese Martial Art.

I to trained Wing Chun and I train Sanda and I see a lot of similarities to Xingyiquan and Taijiquan in some aspects of Sanda training and it is most certainly not a neijia style it does have its roots in CMA however.

And your whole push hands justification is meaningless since just about every single CMA style has push hands and just about every single CMA style uses that to attack the opponent’s structure to uproot and/or off balance... even Sanda which is not Neijia and as a matter of fact not even considered Traditional CMA.

I now have more questions to ask.

How long have you trained Wing Chun?

What branch of Wing Chun are we talking about here, who was your teacher’s teacher?

How long have you trained Taiji?

What is your taiji teachers background; what other styles does he/she train, what did they train first and who was their taiji teacher and what style is it and what forms of that style are we talking about?

And again what is it you find lacking in Wing Chun that fills you with such a need to associate it with Neijia?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Who is Mr. Sam and /or who taught him Yang style Taijiquan? Basically what I am trying to find out here is who in this chain was taught by a member of the Yang family and which Yang family member was it.

And being ranked in a CMA, particularly a Northern system like Taiji means nothing to me. There are traditionally no ranks in Chinese Martial Arts. These appeared when it came to the west because westerners are impressed by ranks. My sifu has been doing Yang Taiji for over 50 years and has no rank other than his sifu “Tung Ying Chieh” allowed him to teach. My Sanda sifu has been doing Sanda for around 30 years and has no rank. The only Rank Chen Zhenglei has comes from the Duan system and it was given to him by the Chinese government but his family never gace him any rank. Nothing wrong with it, but to me it is fairly meaningless when we are talking CMA especially Taijiquan.

Now back to the statement "Wing Chun is an Internal System"

Listen if you want to come on MT and post all about how "Your" particular flavor of Wing Chun is taught internally then great, I have nothing to say about it except possibly tell us more. But if you show up and start saying "all" Wing Chun is internal because that is the way you train then that is just plain wrong and I am going to respond.

Saying all Wing Chun is internal because you train it that way is the same as saying you drive a front wheel drive car therefore all cars are front wheel drive... it just does not work that way

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay people not train the wing chun internal as much in states...but founding fathers of Wing Chun Qoutes illustrates the internal principals...even Viet Nam Wing Chun concentrates on the internal...

As for Sam I have to get back to you on that...I really take Tai Chi to enhance my Wing Chun...I am not knowledgable on mr sam history...well Let me say I don't remember or took notes on it...One their was discussion of lineage...but I wasn't really interested at the time in the lineage...I was more concern with the applications of Tai Chi being done by my WC sifu an another brother...


But I know your stickler for information...So next time we have class. this weekend I will asked...man my break almost over...back to work...

I rather stay at home an work on my Tai Chi Sword...

Who is Mr. Sam and /or who taught him Yang style Taijiquan? Basically what I am trying to find out here is who in this chain was taught by a member of the Yang family and which Yang family member was it.

And being ranked in a CMA, particularly a Northern system like Taiji means nothing to me. There are traditionally no ranks in Chinese Martial Arts. These appeared when it came to the west because westerners are impressed by ranks. My sifu has been doing Yang Taiji for over 50 years and has no rank other than his sifu “Tung Ying Chieh” allowed him to teach. My Sanda sifu has been doing Sanda for around 30 years and has no rank. The only Rank Chen Zhenglei has comes from the Duan system and it was given to him by the Chinese government but his family never gace him any rank. Nothing wrong with it, but to me it is fairly meaningless when we are talking CMA especially Taijiquan.

Now back to the statement "Wing Chun is an Internal System"

Listen if you want to come on MT and post all about how "Your" particular flavor of Wing Chun is taught internally then great, I have nothing to say about it except possibly tell us more. But if you show up and start saying "all" Wing Chun is internal because that is the way you train then that is just plain wrong and I am going to respond.

Saying all Wing Chun is internal because you train it that way is the same as saying you drive a front wheel drive car therefore all cars are front wheel drive... it just does not work that way

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Yoshiyahu
A quick question on your teacher's name is it

Robert Lee Macfield

On this site:

http://www.lcmakc.com/

He calls himself master Lee or Lee Macfield. So if Lee a first name or a middle name. :idunno:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Yea, He was instructed to teach by Mau Chang...Some people call him Eddie Ma..My Sifu was one of the Few who learn some extra stuff from Mau Chang. But mostly everyone else was under Macfield...Who at that time they taught the Wing Chun system alot more authenic...I think they have softening up some over the years with advent of Christianity beliefs...I dont mean soft as internal either...i mean soft as less traditional...but they have something to do with the falling out with Mau Chang I am not sure...but his Wing Chun looks different that what was originally taught before...

AS FOR YOUR QUESTION: Lee I thought was HIS middle Name...I don't know why he calling himself Master Lee...but it may be to seem more Chinese...lol....ha ha...Maybe he is darker relative of Bruce Lee...But from what I heard he is excellent fighter...one not to be taking lightly...My Sifu's other Teacher is Arnold Stricklin who taught him the Five animals and five elements.

But the site seems accurate...My Sihing shared that site with me awhile ago...

Yoshiyahu
A quick question on your teacher's name is it

Robert Lee Macfield

On this site:

http://www.lcmakc.com/


He calls himself master Lee or Lee Macfield. So if Lee a first name or a middle name. :idunno:

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Aww no clarification at all...Just sharing what I know....

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[geezer]

geezer i am intrigued what is cinnabar palm? i never heard of it before, thanks in advance for your reply

On a couple of occasions I witnessed GM Leung Ting perform the Saam Pai Fut movements of Wingtsun's Siu Nim Tau ("Little Idea") form in a special way, demonstrating the so-called "chi-gung" within Wingtsun. One physical manifestation of this exercise was the darkening of the palm of his extended tan-sau (palm-up hand) to a deep, dark shade of red similar to the color of cinnabar. I believe his hand also radiated heat. Anyway, I last saw this nearly twenty years ago, and I have not personally been able to replicate this effect, so I really can't tell you much more. I believe Quicksilver posted that he had also witnessed this performed. Maybe he can add something.

 

[naneek]

sounds incredible, was there any special application of this palm or was it more like a show peice demonstration of chi ?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very Interesting I havent heard about cinnabar palm in my lineage...very interesting....is there any literture on the cinnabar palm one might be able to browse at?

On a couple of occasions I witnessed GM Leung Ting perform the Saam Pai Fut movements of Wingtsun's Siu Nim Tau ("Little Idea") form in a special way, demonstrating the so-called "chi-gung" within Wingtsun. One physical manifestation of this exercise was the darkening of the palm of his extended tan-sau (palm-up hand) to a deep, dark shade of red similar to the color of cinnabar. I believe his hand also radiated heat. Anyway, I last saw this nearly twenty years ago, and I have not personally been able to replicate this effect, so I really can't tell you much more. I believe Quicksilver posted that he had also witnessed this performed. Maybe he can add something.

 

[qwksilver61]

There is also reference to this effect in GGM Tings books,buy the pocketbook on Siu Nim Tau, it also explains in detail.I am surprised that more of you haven't heard of this,it also describes reverse breathing.When I received instruction from my then Dei Si-Hing Steve Brandon, we learned this from day one.Long term effects include without warning a wave of hot and cold,feelings of euphoria,and the ability to withstand cold.I have personally exerienced all of these things.Also, I previously forwarned (another post) against any feelings of anxiety while practicing the meditative first form,as it can cause high anxiety and create very high energy levels.Most important slow breathing,clear the mind of any distractions (no TV) and relax! I stretch my entire body at least twice a day before practicing,I believe completely in proper alignment and open meridians.These are just my own experiences and not the end all to explaining this mysterious phenomenon.I am sure there is a credible scientific explanation.I like what I have read so far.....keep it comming.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh interesting..I have expereince some of what you said from some of chi kung practices my Sifu gave me with the wing chun...interesting...I felt a wave in one time in my hands...like electrical wave storm hard to explain..


But very interesting. I can tell you have a traditional and real sifu because much of what you is true Wing Chun...So many WC people neglect Strecthing,Chi cultivation and breathing. They neglect meditation and the use of Chi.

There is also reference to this effect in GGM Tings books,buy the pocketbook on Siu Nim Tau, it also explains in detail.I am surprised that more of you haven't heard of this,it also describes reverse breathing.When I received instruction from my then Dei Si-Hing Steve Brandon, we learned this from day one.Long term effects include without warning a wave of hot and cold,feelings of euphoria,and the ability to withstand cold.I have personally exerienced all of these things.Also, I previously forwarned (another post) against any feelings of anxiety while practicing the meditative first form,as it can cause high anxiety and create very high energy levels.Most important slow breathing,clear the mind of any distractions (no TV) and relax! I stretch my entire body at least twice a day before practicing,I believe completely in proper alignment and open meridians.These are just my own experiences and not the end all to explaining this mysterious phenomenon.I am sure there is a credible scientific explanation.I like what I have read so far.....keep it comming.

 

[Grunthos the Flatulent]

What do you mean internal or external? Isnt this good outside or is it only an inside thing?

 

[Mystic Wolf]

:trollsign

What do you mean internal or external? Isnt this good outside or is it only an inside thing?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Do you know what Internal means? Eh Padre?

What do you mean internal or external? Isnt this good outside or is it only an inside thing?