Why we punch the way we do

[yilisifu]

Disco -
You must be too young to remember Muhammed Ali's historic fight - knocked out the reigning world heavyweight with a punch which TWISTED very much like a corkscrew punch at the end.

So much for the boxing question.

Bruce Lee did not twist his wrist when punching primarily because Wing Chun doesn't use a twisting punch. The snap comes from a vertical action in the wrist....

 

[Matt Stone]

I have heard the argument for the alleged additional length of the arm when positioned for a horizontal punch vs. a vertical punch, but the only way in which I gain any length is through extension of the shoulder...

If I stand with my back to a wall, extending my arm out fully with a horizontal fist position, then rotate my hand to a vertical fist position, I notice absolutely no change in the length of my arm.

I doubt the veracity of that particular claim.

As for breaking with punches, while I usually break with palm slaps, when I have broken with punches they have always had proper techinque, i.e. rotation. Never had a problem with it. I would theorize that those who display difficulties in supporting their punches likely have very weak wrists and should perhaps condition their arms prior to attempting something that structurally they are not yet ready for...

Interesting viewpoint, but I respectfully disagree...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[chufeng]

an observation...

the breaking demos I've witnessed come in two flavors...those that intend on showing skill and those that intend on "WOWING" a crowd.

Those that use focus and intent in their breaking are obvious...and not too impressive (unless you underrstand what just took place)...those that "WOW" the crowds don't use anything like REAL technique to break the doctored materials.

Pretending to focus...focus...focus...focus...and then jump straighgt up in the air and come down with a totally different technique with nothing but body weight behind it is NOT my idea of a good demonstration of breaking skill.

If I took the head off of a ballpean hammer and laid it down on the same stack of wood (with spacers) or cement (with spacers) and asked ANYONE who weighed 120 pounds, or more to jump up and land on that hammer...I'd see the same results...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Disco]

Boxing - I remember Ali and the infamous punch. Mr. showman. Only person ever in boxing to my knowledge to throw such a punch, doubious at least, plus again hands and wrist taped. One example does not undermine the fact that boxers don't / are not taught to punch like that.

Breakers - If you are taught to do the 1/2-3/4 twist punch and you practice it and your wrists are strong etc, etc, then I salute you. The vast majority of people either can't or won't take the extended time to learn to punch like that, plus the fact that it's not a natural way to punch. Hense the training aspect to perfect it. I personally have found that I have more power and extension to my punch without the twisting motion. Perhaps the extension comes from the angle of the elbow. Many, including myself find that the elbow is bent when striking with the twisting motion as opposed to being much straighter with the vertical punch. Just by the shear vurture of the twisting motion, you fist is coming in on varying angles. This will not matter all that much if you hit something soft (stomach), but if you hit something hard at the wrong angle, you know what will happen. This is only meant to offer info to avoid hurting yourself. If, I repeat, If you perfer to use the twisting punch and feel secure with your technique. Bang away and I wish you good health and many years of pain free training. :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Disco
If you are taught to do the 1/2-3/4 twist punch and you practice it and your wrists are strong etc, etc, then I salute you.

No need to salute... Just train your wrists and you will be able to do the same. Even if you don't wish to punch in that fashion, I would recommend you train your wrists anyway, to prevent injury in the event the opponent zigs when you think he is going to zag, changing the distance and timing of your strike unexpectedly...

The vast majority of people either can't or won't take the extended time to learn to punch like that, plus the fact that it's not a natural way to punch.

I agree that it isn't particularly the most natural motion. However, for those who complain that the technique is invalid because so many can't perform it or refuse to train themselves to be able to, I would say that their argument doesn't hold water. If you choose to punch differently because you like it better, that's fine. At least there is a rationale to the decision. But saying that your choice is based on the difficulty of the technique erodes the quality of a person's art to the core. If everyone simply bowed out of training because something was too difficult, imagine the state of martial arts overall!

Hense the training aspect to perfect it. I personally have found that I have more power and extension to my punch without the twisting motion. Perhaps the extension comes from the angle of the elbow. Many, including myself find that the elbow is bent when striking with the twisting motion as opposed to being much straighter with the vertical punch. Just by the shear vurture of the twisting motion, you fist is coming in on varying angles. This will not matter all that much if you hit something soft (stomach), but if you hit something hard at the wrong angle, you know what will happen. This is only meant to offer info to avoid hurting yourself. If, I repeat, If you perfer to use the twisting punch and feel secure with your technique. Bang away and I wish you good health and many years of pain free training. :asian:

Again, at least you base your decision on a reasonable basis - you like punching that way. Personally, I don't worry overly much about how my strike lands... I have big enough wrists and forearms, plus the conditioning I have done, I can pretty much smack anything on the human body without too much concern.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Indeed! Some articles about Ali's match noted the "strange" punch which dropped his opponent like a rag doll. It was unique to them.

Just because boxers aren't taught it doesn't mean it's ineffective. They tend to punch with the last two or three knuckles (due to the nature of the glove). The last two knuckles are weaker than the first two and break more easily. Thus, the term "boxer's break."

One of the purposes of training is to strengthen the wrists so they can absorb the power generated by one's own thrust. This is true of any form of punching.

No, it isn't a "natural" way to punch. Most martial arts movements are not "natural" and have to be learned. That is the purpose (one of them) of training; to MAKE THEM NATURAL. If we only used what felt natural, we'd be very limited indeed...and our techniques would be rather weak since strenuous training is required to teach us how to make powerful techniques.

Yiliquan 1 put it very well.....

 

[Matt Stone]

Yiliquan 1 put it very well.....

Not even close, Sifu... I just said what I felt.

In Yiliquan, we don't block per se, but what we term our "blocks" amount to methods by which the incoming technique is gradually redirected away from its intended target. Instead of directly opposing an incoming punch with a hard, smashing inside block, we turn as we do it, timing the contact to guide the incoming strike away from us as it gradually decellerates. Then we beat his a$$...

But I like to bash the heck out of the bad guy. I like to think of my strikes as punishment. Sure, sure, kill in one blow... Whatever. I picture my hands as hammers and try to smack chunks off the guy. When I block, I like to use the blocking movement as a strike against the bad guy's limbs. He will find out, in short order, that if his resolve is wanting, he shouldn't toss a second strike my way.

That is in direct contradiction to the "orthodox" method of blocking in Yiliquan, but I do it because I choose to. Same as Disco choosing to punch a certain way. I am still able to block the way Yiliquan dictates, and I am sure that Disco could train his punches so that his ability to strike with a rotating wrist would be just fine.

But I still don't know what the hell I'm talking about... Not by a long shot.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[chufeng]

YiLiQuan1,

Actually, the smashing blocks are very much a part of BaiXingQuan; we just don't emphasize them because YiLi's principles use a more "get out of the way" approach.

I think that using the smashing block actually requires a greater timing skill, IF we apply the principle of lateral return...
We aren't interested in STOPPING the attacking limb; rather, we make it miss and apply the strike to it as it passes (much like a bull-fighter avoids the horns of a charging bull).

...and, you actually know more than you think...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

So there!