Why we punch the way we do

[Johnathan Napalm]

Power of punching comes from 1. The torque augmented by the pulling back of the other limb, 2 turning of the hip, 3. the thrust delivered by the supporting rear leg, 4. launching of the body forward just before the strike.

When you have the timing luxury, you call in all 4 sources to generate the power needed. If you don't, use what you got. The one who lands the FIRST effective strike, wins.

 

[chufeng]

Interesting point...

Power of punching comes from 1. The torque augmented by the pulling back of the other limb,

What if you're blocking or parrying with the other limb?
And is it just chambering?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Elfan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Punching with a vertical fist requires a dropped shoulder that aligns the bones of the arm in one continuous line.

Is there any method of stirking with the front of the fist from the hip that doesn't involve a drop in the shoulder?

 

[GouRonin]

 

[white dragon]

dude..... ugh.

 

[GouRonin]

 

[white dragon]

Is that even you, because one of you is in the chat room with me talking about fistoffury's masturbation habbits.....

 

[GouRonin]

 

[white dragon]

you don't say much do you?

 

[GouRonin]

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Elfan
Is there any method of stirking with the front of the fist from the hip that doesn't involve a drop in the shoulder?

First, I have seen all sorts of folks who not only don't drop their shoulder, but I have seen entirely too many who raise their shoulder when they punch. Usually that is a mistake made by beginners, but I have seen more than a fair share of schools where all of their students (and a number of their instructors) tense their trapezius as they punch, causing a lift/clench of the shoulder.

Second, who is talking about punching from the hip? A technique gains power the farther it travels, but I doubt that most strikes will have the convenience of being able to go the full distance from hip to target. I train my strikes from full chamber, but whenever I fight or work self-defense sequences it seems to me that at least the initial strikes come from an on guard position as opposed to full chamber.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:

 

[Elfan]

Second, who is talking about punching from the hip?

That seemed to be the point of the topic. Since we don't all speak the same "language" it seemed to be best to stick to that one starting position that almost anyone with martial arts experience could relate to.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I train my strikes from full chamber, but whenever I fight or work self-defense sequences it seems to me that at least the initial strikes come from an on guard position as opposed to full chamber.

Well the shoulder does differnt things depending on where you start but I belive it should always drop if punching from chambered. Just wanted to see if anyone thought differntly on that point. I agree that you wont be starting there most of the time in self defense situations.

 

[white dragon]

The subject was starting relating to the moves taught in a dojang/dojo, so chambering from the hip is relevant. All very good points guys!

 

[yilisifu]

The "screw" at the end of the punch (which occurs just prior to impact) accomplishes two main things:

1. It causes the power (which is emitted into the target) to spiral,
and this results in deeper penetration than would occur
otherwise. It acts something akin to the rifling inside the
barrel of a rifle (as opposed to the musket which has no
rifling) in this wise.

2. It dramatically increases the acceleration of the thrust just
before impact, adding more impetus to the blow. Most
novices screw the fist too early. Once the fist is screwed
over, there is a dramatic deceleration and power is greatly
reduced.

The punch is intended to strike with certain knuckles (depending on style) which reduces the surface area over which the power is generated. This results in a strong "focusing" of power onto a relatively small surface.
However, it is crucial that the puncher's wrist, arm, and body are able to withstand the tremendous force of the thrust as it travels back through him/her momentarily...

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by chufeng
Interesting point...

What if you're blocking or parrying with the other limb?
And is it just chambering?

:asian:
chufeng

Of the 4 sources of power, you don't necessary get to employ all of them at any one time. As you mentioned, when you block or parry, then source number 1 is not available. Also if there is a need to avoid telegraphing (ie when you are the one initiating the attack), then you don't chamber. Much like everything else in life, there is a trade-off between maximum speed and maximum power.

 

[vin2k0]

With the horizontal fist punch you can enable the two prime knuckles much more easily than if the fist was vertical. The two knuckles on the left hand side of the fist are the two which should be punched with, with the fist in the correct position it is very easy to punch with these two knuckles. Also the 'corkscrew' type twist in the hand at the end of the technique provides extra power.

These are my perceptions, be them correct or incorrect. The answer i honestly have no idea of, this will be a question for my sensei to answer in full.

 

[vin2k0]

Ah sorry i posted my reply before reading everyone elses. Just read yilisifu's reply and discovered he has said almost exactly the same as i have, just his is more understandable so ignore mine Great minds think alike though eh yilisifu

 

[yilisifu]

Thanks!

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
hahaaaaa. LMFAO! You have NO idea what ikken hisatsu is about. Not even close! Don't bother to pretend. lol

Well then, I'm sure you do. So please be so kind as to enlighten and educate those of us that are so far below the level of knowledge, know how and experience, that you have attained.

As for pretense, sorry, but you must have mixed up with someone else.

--Dave

:asian:

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by yilisifu
...However, it is crucial that the puncher's wrist, arm, and body are able to withstand the tremendous force of the thrust as it travels back through him/her momentarily...

This brings up another good point regarding the 3/4 twist. According to Gray's Anatomy, there is a membrane that covers the radius and the ulna. It is called the interosseous membrane.
When we punch with the 3/4 twist, the bones will bow a little under the strain. As this happens the membrane is supposed to pull tight and distribute the stresses evenly between the bones, to keep them from bowing further, and to maintain the structural integrity of the forearm. The force of the punch should be distributed over the entire length of both bones, so that there is virtually no loss of power or risk of injury.

What is more impressive about this membrane is that it does not transfer stress laterally, but does so diagonally between the bones. As the radius is thicker at the wrist and thinner near the elbow, we find that the ulna thickest near the elbow and thinner near the wrist. The angle of the membrane ensures that the weaker part of each bone is connected to the stronger part of the other bone. The membrane also appears to be designed to work with the natural stress alignments along the arm. When a punch is delivered it is typically force generated along the line of the radius. The pressure on the radius will cause it to move back slightly, but the angle of the membrane works to keep the bone in place and transfer the forces without any play or slack.

Research has shown that during the full twist punc, the radius and the ulna wrap around each other, essentially collapsing onto each other, and the membrane is folded between them. When the membrane is slack, it cannot support the structure of the forearm bones. Instead they bend apart and shift on impact, producing unequal forces in the wrist, and resulting in a loss of punching power and a risk of injury at the weaker bones. The position of the bones during the 3/4 twist punch, is such that optimal tension is maintained throughout the membrane for the duration of the movement. The 3/4 punch also creates equilateral tension in the muscles that turn the wrist. One turns it palm up, the other palm down. The 3/4 punch puts the wrist at about the 1/2 way mark for both of these muscles. The full twist has 1 muscle at full extension and the other fully contracted, creating somewhat of an imbalance, which in turn could allow the wrist to buckle under pressure.

I think for more in depth explanation of this though, RyuShiKan could help out. I belive that Mr. Oyata uses this method of punching in his system.

--Dave
:asian: