why train unusable techs

[cfr]

Why would anyone practice techs they would never/ could never use in a real life situation? I've heard on more than one occasion people say "this is how we do it in here, but I would never really do this on the street". Usually referring to high flashy kicks, funky footwork, some sort of tech that could never really be pulled off against a resisting opponent, hand on the hip (this ones a biggie), etc. If thats the case, why would anyone ever want to train in it? When I train something I don't think I could do "for real" I start to feel like Im wasting my time, but thats just me.

 

[lulflo]

That would be Murphy's law in effect.

The one thing you think you don't have to train in is going to be the lifesaver that you will be glad you did just because ...maybe.

Farang - Larry

 

[Shu2jack]

Why would anyone practice techs they would never/ could never use in a real life situation? I've heard on more than one occasion people say "this is how we do it in here, but I would never really do this on the street". Usually referring to high flashy kicks, funky footwork, some sort of tech that could never really be pulled off against a resisting opponent, hand on the hip (this ones a biggie), etc. If thats the case, why would anyone ever want to train in it? When I train something I don't think I could do "for real" I start to feel like Im wasting my time, but thats just me.

-Not all martial arts focus solely on street defense or the ring. So certain things may be there to suit other purposes.

-Do you jump rope? Do you weight lift? If you, or others do, why? If someone is going to attack you, will jumping on both your feet in one spot save your life? How about laying on your back and waiting for the bad guy lays on you so you can do a hard-core bench press on him and knock him out?

I guess what I am trying to say is that some techniques and exercises of themselves are not directly applicable to fighting, but serve the purpose of enhancing what you would directly use in a fight.

 

[MA-Caver]

To me Martial Arts isn't about learning how to kick someone's *** with this technique or that form. It's a whole mind-body-spiritual discipline that teaches the harmony of all three so that they can act as one. True, that Shaolin monks created this discipline to be used ultimately as a means for self-defense, but even they realized the benefits of learning these moves to help the body find it's own harmony. Other arts and their subsquent masters/creators had very much the same mind-set of varying degrees.
Learning a nice jumping round-house spinning kick may not ever be used in a real-life or ring situation but as lulflo pointed out... you just never know. You might be confronted in an empty parking lot or a city park by some jerk-weed that wants to swing his testosterone around. Ahh, now you got plenty of room to do something like that don't cha? :wink1:
Point is (as I see it) those things you learn that you'll never use also helps you hone and fine tune the things that you learn that you'll be most likely to use.
If you ever notice how one form, technique or kata or whatever is similar to another? The movements and principal... take one that you'll most likely to use and compare it to one of those never used ones and see the similarities compared to the differences. Try that and see what you think then.
:asian:

 

[Han-Mi]

What would you do once you got down all of the techs that are deemed "useable". Or even just the absolute most effective techs. That would make training pretty damned boring.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

if i can throw a kick butt jumping spinning back kick, or a jumping spinning roundhouse, throwing a regular back kick and roundhouse should be pretty easy.

 

[arnisador]

Hey, some people like tradition. If someone wants to train iaido, it's fine by me. But for most things you mention, people have differing opinions. One person says high kicks won't work, another says Yes they will, and a third says they improve one's low kicks and that's why they practice them.

 

[Laborn]

well if i ever fight i would mostly use round kicks and front kicks, but i might do a *flashy* kick, their all useful, but at the right times, like a spinning hook, i get hit with them things all the time in sparring, and im use to blocking them lol.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Heard an old saying, Chinese in origin I think, that goes.................

"After you have learned everything, what do you call what you learn next"?

 

[Flatlander]

if i can throw a kick butt jumping spinning back kick, or a jumping spinning roundhouse, throwing a regular back kick and roundhouse should be pretty easy.

Good point. Further to this, the training of attributes might at times take us into drills wherein we execute movements in ways that may not be the most "efficient" or "tight", as the drills are intended to instill gross muscle memory, tactile sensitivity, or just instill the "basics" for later development and tuning. Truth be told, I don't believe that there is such a thing as an unusable technique, though there might be a perception as being such when misapplied or mistimed. Any technique can work under the appropriate circumstances.

 

[cfr]

I should probably clear the air up a bit. "Unusable techs" was probably the wrong choice in words, my apologies if I have offended anyone as that wasn't my intent. My point was more, if you aren't going to:

1; Fight with your back hand on your hip.
2; Do flashy kicks.
3; Bizarre footwork.

Then why train in them. Im not saying they're unusable and apologize again for using that terminology. My point more was people that employ the things listed above but then say they wouldn't use them in a real fight. A few of you have pointed out answers like tradition, fun, etc. and those are answers that really make sense that I hadn't thought of.

 

[Shu2jack]

My point was more, if you aren't going to:

1; Fight with your back hand on your hip.
2; Do flashy kicks.
3; Bizarre footwork.

Then why train in them.

Most of our responses still stand, and you partly answered your own question;

A few of you have pointed out answers like tradition, fun, etc. and those are answers that really make sense that I hadn't thought of.

And I answered the question as best I could;

-Do you jump rope? Do you weight lift? If you, or others do, why? If someone is going to attack you, will jumping on both your feet in one spot save your life? How about laying on your back and waiting for the bad guy lays on you so you can do a hard-core bench press on him and knock him out?

I guess what I am trying to say is that some techniques and exercises of themselves are not directly applicable to fighting, but serve the purpose of enhancing what you would directly use in a fight.

 

[MA-Caver]

I should probably clear the air up a bit. "Unusable techs" was probably the wrong choice in words, my apologies if I have offended anyone as that wasn't my intent. My point was more, if you aren't going to:

1; Fight with your back hand on your hip.
2; Do flashy kicks.
3; Bizarre footwork.

Then why train in them. Im not saying they're unusable and apologize again for using that terminology. My point more was people that employ the things listed above but then say they wouldn't use them in a real fight. A few of you have pointed out answers like tradition, fun, etc. and those are answers that really make sense that I hadn't thought of.

I dunno about #'s 2 and 3 but I can see the value of the first one "...back hand on hip..." if that hand/arm is injured then you still can fight effectively with the free hand... or am I missing something (again )

 

[arnisador]

The back hand on the hip is often interpreted as a grab of the opponent's hand. Others say they practice throwing punches from as back as possible, but that you might start at any point in the punch.

The flashy kicks improve overall kicking ability, people would say.

What footwork is 'bizarre'? Monkey style, drunken style?

For the most part, I think one should train as one fights. But I think it's a good point that one may have to, over a lifetime in the arts, battle boredom by training more difficult techniques! It's a challenge, in part. Why do we climb mountains? Because they're there. Why do we practice jumping spinning back kicks? Because we hope to star in martial arts movies some day!

 

[cfr]

Most of our responses still stand, and you partly answered your own question;


And I answered the question as best I could;

You do realize that I was not only correcting myself, but thanking you for youre responses, right?

 

[arnisador]

Further to this, the training of attributes might at times take us into drills wherein we execute movements in ways that may not be the most "efficient" or "tight", as the drills are intended to instill gross muscle memory, tactile sensitivity, or just instill the "basics" for later development and tuning.

This is an important point. I often do stick techniques with 4-5 steps where in truth I expect that after 2 steps the person would be down, or things would have changed. Why? Attributes is part of the reason. I knife duel not because I foresee being in a knife fight, but because it builds a variety of attributes.

Truth be told, I don't believe that there is such a thing as an unusable technique, though there might be a perception as being such when misapplied or mistimed. Any technique can work under the appropriate circumstances.

I largely agree.

Dr. Gyi says you must train for 3 types of opponents: An untrained fighter; a trained fighter from a different and dissimilar system; and a trained fighter from your system or one that's similar. In the first case, a high kick would be unnecessary. In the third case, it might be dangerous as your opponent might know the counter. But in the second case, it could make the difference! You might analyze this differently and think it would matter in the third case--that's what I'd say for some advanced stick-fighting techniques, for example--but the idea is the same. You must consider at least three types of opponents. (I consider a skilled streetfighter to fall in the second category.) You may need different techniques in different situations.

But don't underestimate the value of perfecting more difficult techniques for fighting boredom, for pushing one's limits/self-perfection, for drawing in would-be students (we all have a "flashy" demo technique), for enhancing strength or flexibility, etc.

 

[cfr]

I dunno about #'s 2 and 3 but I can see the value of the first one "...back hand on hip..." if that hand/arm is injured then you still can fight effectively with the free hand... or am I missing something (again )

Youre not missing anything. Injured hand is another point I hadnt thought of.

 

[Shu2jack]

You do realize that I was not only correcting myself, but thanking you for youre responses, right?

I guess not, I thought you were rephraseing your question. My apologys.

 

[Marginal]

I should probably clear the air up a bit. "Unusable techs" was probably the wrong choice in words, my apologies if I have offended anyone as that wasn't my intent. My point was more, if you aren't going to:

1; Fight with your back hand on your hip.
2; Do flashy kicks.
3; Bizarre footwork.

Then why train in them.

Well, to go down the list.

1) Some times a boxing coach will have someone who is having trouble keeping his elbow in while throwing a jab stand up against a wall so that the elbow cannot flare out. Hand on hip on the most basic level is designed to discourage this elbow flare as well. Also worth noting that no hand on hip tradition sticks to hand on hip for sparring etc, so it's not practiced 100% of the time, nor is it conditioned to emerge in a more freewheeling situation.

2) Flashy kicks tend to require and build solid leg strength and an understanding of the underlying basic kicks. Resulting in stronger kicks all 'round. May not use them in a fight, but they make for decent conditioning tools.

3) Comes in handy when you're attacked by a West Side Story street gang. Can't avoid the knife without the proper coreography. If you're doing jazz hands when you should be doing the funky chicken...

 

[MA-Caver]

3) Comes in handy when you're attacked by a West Side Story street gang. Can't avoid the knife without the proper coreography. If you're doing jazz hands when you should be doing the funky chicken...

Yeah well you can't possibly be fighting the West Side Story street gang without knowing the lyrics can ya?
Geez!
When you're a Jet,
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From your first cigarette
To your last dyin' day.

When you're a Jet,
If the spit hits the fan,
You got brothers around,
You're a family man!

You're never alone,
You're never disconnected!
You're home with your own:
When company's expected,
You're well protected!

Then you are set
With a capital J,
Which you'll never forget
Till they cart you away.
When you're a Jet,
You stay a Jet!