Why Traditional Karate Is Not Effective for Self-Defense

[blindsage]

i would agree with you about the sporting aspect to karate, its the same as judo which due the sport not having much grappling is not really seen as an effective martial art yet bjj is even though thay are the same thing really.

we will have to agree ti disagree about the other issue

Judo doesn't have much grappling?

 

[seasoned]

Strange then that his website says that "Traditional Kyokushin Karate" is part of his organization including "the traditional Kihon and Kata".
http://www.jonbluming.nl/

Must be a miss print.

 

[seasoned]

One of the first things taught in a "traditional" dojo is humility, of which, is a hard pill to swallow, for some.

 

[chinto]

This is a huge fallacy.

It does not matter what karate was or where it was used.

Your training is what matters.

If you are not training for the battlefield yourself, utilizing the methods that karate's forebears were, you cannot say that YOUR KARATE is effective for battlefield combat. The same goes for "the street".



All martial arts are not the same.

Either your training is applicable in a live environment, or it is not.



Once removed from the necessity of live combat, it is actually very easy for martial arts to survive. They become stagnant & traditional, and exist for reasons other than combat. The Koryu of Japan are a perfect example of this.



Kano's Judo took on all comers in open, unregulated combat & defeated the so-called "self-defense" schools of jujutsu of the time, because of the emphasis on randori & live training, rather than the dead, static training you are referring to.



Completely incorrect, and why the US Army bases much of its hand-to-hand curriculum off of Brazilian JJ.

LOL bjj is not designed for or that useful for the street or the battlefield in genreal. it is optimized for the ring.. the reason the MMAP and US ARMY has adopted so much of it is that the pentagon wanted it all toned down for "nation building and peace keeping" were you are not suposed to hurt the person your fighting... some things never change, including the amount of military stupidity. this is the same thinking that has embasy guards standing sentury duty with out ammo in danger zones. and guards on payroles in the past with out ammo too. ( they might hurt some one if they had ammo! sheesh!)

as for my karate, it works, it has been used back when i knew a lot less then I do now of it and it kept me alive.
you may say karate does not work.. your opinion, nothing more.

Most soldiers and marines are not well trained in unarmed combat at all. They are not expecting to engage in unarmed combat in the first place! that is why they carry a RIFLE!

That is why the special operations troops, most all actually, study a martial art at their own expense and on their own time. Every one I have ever known has studied Karate, jujitsu ( traditional samurai types ) kung fu, or silat or kali or one of the other traditional systems.

 

[K-man]

Most soldiers and marines are not well trained in unarmed combat at all. They are not expecting to engage in unarmed combat in the first place! that is why they carry a RIFLE!

That is why the special operations troops, most all actually, study a martial art at their own expense and on their own time. Every one I have ever known has studied Karate, jujitsu ( traditional samurai types ) kung fu, or silat or kali or one of the other traditional systems.

Our police forces are the same. There is debate in Australia at the moment as to whether police should carry tasers as a bridge between capsicum spray and firearms. The training for hands-on arrests is now minimal. Everything is at-a-distance.

On another vein. Chojun Miyagi developed the two gekesai kata in the early 1940s and these were used in military training. If you look at the techniques you can see where they could be used against an enemy using bayonet and wearing a helmet in the situation where you had lost you own weapon. This is really an example of how a martial art has evolved to adapt to a new environment as opposed to those who say that martial arts are from the past and have no relevance today. :asian:

 

[chav buster]

Judo doesn't have much grappling?

what!! judo has loads of grappling infact bjj just judo grappling

 

[blindsage]

what!! judo has loads of grappling infact bjj just judo grappling

If you look closely you will see a question mark at the end of my sentence. It was a response to a previous statment of your which says,

i would agree with you about the sporting aspect to karate, its the same as judo which due the sport not having much grappling is not really seen as an effective martial art yet bjj is even though thay are the same thing really.

 

[chav buster]

If you look closely you will see a question mark at the end of my sentence. It was a response to a previous statment of your which says,

ok but sports judo dosnt have alot of grappling maybe 30 seconds if your lucky

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Talk about an old thread! This one started in 2004.

I just read the article. I do not know who WR Mann is, but his article makes him look like a shyster with something to sell.

"That sent chills up my spine, and with the same fervor as a surgeon desperately trying to save the life of a stroke victim"

Come on! Talk about self importance. Gag. This article is so patronizing that I really could not take it seriously. I would have almost laughed had I not believed that he was serious.

Maybe this guy is really good at what he does. Maybe people know his work and respect him. Maybe he posts here. Maybe he is a really cool cat. I do not know and am not familiar with him. He came across as either ignorant or deliberately misleading in his presentation of the facts. Either way, I found him to be little more than a self important windbag who's article I could pick apart and demonstrate its errors without a whole lot of effort.

Daniel

 

[Sandwich]

what!! judo has loads of grappling infact bjj just judo grappling

Yes, they use many of the same grappling techniques. BJJ did evolve from Judo after all. But in practice, they're very different.

The biggest factor is time spent grappling. In BJJ, most schools spend 95%-100% of their time on the ground. In judo, the average is more like 70/30 throws/ground, though this varies greatly in some places.

Emphasis on techniques is another big factor. The guard is not a big part of Judo. Because so many schools train with an emphasis on competition, pins are a big part of Judo. In judo, when someone takes your back, turtling is often totally acceptable. In BJJ, no practitioner is going to give up their back willingly (unless they have a good turtle offense). And if you do get their back, they're not going to be content to just defend. They're going to be working for an escape, trying to turn into your guard, etc.

The amount of submissions that one learns in BJJ is quite substantial. It's not uncommon for a BJJ white belt to know more submissions than a Judo black belt, but the ability to utilize them won't be there.

A judo black belt is roughly equivalent to a BJJ blue belt. And if anyone would like to disagree, I can show them a thread on a judo forum with dozens of judoka who are in agreement.

Having said that, there are some great judo clubs that put equal emphasis on both the ground as well as throws. Unfortunately they are few and far between.

Sorry, not the main topic of this thread. I just wanted to add my own thoughts.

 

[twendkata71]

Our police forces are the same. There is debate in Australia at the moment as to whether police should carry tasers as a bridge between capsicum spray and firearms. The training for hands-on arrests is now minimal. Everything is at-a-distance.

On another vein. Chojun Miyagi developed the two gekesai kata in the early 1940s and these were used in military training. If you look at the techniques you can see where they could be used against an enemy using bayonet and wearing a helmet in the situation where you had lost you own weapon. This is really an example of how a martial art has evolved to adapt to a new environment as opposed to those who say that martial arts are from the past and have no relevance today. :asian:

Actually Miyagi Chojun O'sensei coauthored those kata with Nagamine Shoshin. Miyagi creating fukyugata ichi and Nagamine creating fukyugata ni. And they were designed to simplify instruction for small school children(they were called promotional kata) meaning that they were used in demonstations to gain new students in the elementary, middle and high school on Okinawa. This is why they are so wide spread throughout many styles of karate on Okinawa. And yes the Japanese Military included them in their pre and during WWII training of millitary personell. It gave them a quick and basic learning opportunity. For troops in basic training. Miyagi and Nagamine were not so much pro military as they were patriots and believed in national pride, eventhough they were Okinawan, not Japanese. Just because Japan owns/runs the Island country of Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands doesn't mean they are Japanese. There is quite a difference in culture, language,etc. even though the official language on Okinawa is Japanese. That is a political control issue. Many of the old Okinawans are still a bit rebellous in that they continue to speak the old Hogan dialects in small circles, keeping their Okinawan heritage alive. The Japanese tend to try to stamp out the cultures of the places they control, even today.

 

[TimoS]

Miyagi creating fukyugata ichi and Nagamine creating fukyugata ni

Actually, the other way round. Fukyugata ichi is Nagamine's and ni Miyagi's creation. At least that's the order in Seibukan

 

[K-man]

Actually Miyagi Chojun O'sensei coauthored those kata with Nagamine Shoshin. Miyagi creating fukyugata ichi and Nagamine creating fukyugata ni. And they were designed to simplify instruction for small school children(they were called promotional kata) meaning that they were used in demonstations to gain new students in the elementary, middle and high school on Okinawa. This is why they are so wide spread throughout many styles of karate on Okinawa. And yes the Japanese Military included them in their pre and during WWII training of millitary personell. It gave them a quick and basic learning opportunity. For troops in basic training. Miyagi and Nagamine were not so much pro military as they were patriots and believed in national pride, eventhough they were Okinawan, not Japanese. Just because Japan owns/runs the Island country of Okinawa and the Ryukyu Islands doesn't mean they are Japanese. There is quite a difference in culture, language,etc. even though the official language on Okinawa is Japanese. That is a political control issue. Many of the old Okinawans are still a bit rebellous in that they continue to speak the old Hogan dialects in small circles, keeping their Okinawan heritage alive. The Japanese tend to try to stamp out the cultures of the places they control, even today.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The two forms Gekisai dai ichi and Gekisai dai ni were introduced by Chujun Miyagi as training kata into the Goju Ryu curriculum in 1940 for school children and adolescents. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The preservation and promotion of Okinawan Karate had been a concern to many senior karate masters for some years and led to a number of initiatives in the 1930's. One such being the 'Okinawan Prefectual Karate Do Promotion Society' founded in 1937, by Chosihin Chibana, Shimpan Gushukuma, Chomo Hanashiro, Chotoku Kyan, Jyuhatsu Kyoda, Choryu Maeshiro, Chojun Miyagi, Genwa Nakasone and Kentsu Yabu, prior to the second world war 1938-1945. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This desire to promote Karate resulted in the development of the Hookiyu Kata meaning 'Unified Forms' at the official request of Gen Hayakawa the governer of Okinawa. With Soshin Nagamine and Chojun Miyagi creating the Fukyu Kata or examination forms. Sochin Nagamine of Matsubyashi Shorin Ryu created the form Fukyu Kata Ichi and Chujun Miyagi created Fukyu Kata Ni. Miyagi adopted Fukyu Kata Ni as Gekisai Dai Ichi and went on to develop Gekisai Dai Ni with its Naha Te influence. .... Sodokan Goju Karate Association[/FONT]​

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

I'm glad I am writing these names and not trying to pronounce them!!

It has been my understanding that the Gekisai kata were developed from Fukyu Kata Ni.
It is also important to understand the political situation that existed in Japan at that time. Japan had been in armed conflict with China in an undeclared war since 1931. This became a full scale struggle in 1937 and war was finally 'declared' in 1941. Even though this was the largest Asian war of the 20th century, the war was never 'declared' or Japanese steel imports from America would have stopped because of the US 'Neutrality Acts'. Japan did not enter the 2nd World War until Dec 1941. As can be seen at the time these kata were being developed many young Japanese men were either at war or training for war.
Another interesting point about kata Gekisai Dai Ichi is that it finishes with the rear foot coming forward to finish beside the front foot. As far as I can see all other kata finish with the front foot moving back to finish beside the rear foot. My understanding of this is that this was to be symbolic of the Japanese warrior advancing in the face of adversity.
Another thing to take into account is that Miyagi was closely involved with Japan in the early 1930s with demonstrations at many universities. Gogen Yamaguchi set up his Goju teaching in Japan (basically with Miyagi's blessing) not long afterwards and established the Goju Kai in 1935. So, although Miyagi was Okinawan, his focus was clearly on Japan during that decade.
This is why I believe the Gekisai kata were developed within a modern (1930s) military context, that although taught to children as youngsters, the kata could be explained later to the military as a true form of unarmed combat. :asian:​

[/FONT]

 

[twendkata71]

Actually, it was the US that didn't get into WWII until 1941. The Japanese were in it when Germany started in. Japan had already started annexing several countries by force before Germany started attacking Europe. Japan was waging war all over the asian continent for several years before WWII broke out. They did not declare war on the US until 1941. The US sent equipment, supplies and pilots into China a few years before our entry in WWII to help the Chinese fight against the Japanese who were waging war on China and starting to take over the whole country. By 1940 they had taken over China, Korea, Taiwan, Indochina(Vietnam) Thailand and Burma. They were by no means bystanders in WWII at anytime. They were at war with Russia in 1905. They however were on the allies side during WWI. Not sure what this has to do with Karate other than the fact that the Japanese were training their soldiers in karate.

 

[K-man]

Actually, it was the US that didn't get into WWII until 1941. The Japanese were in it when Germany started in. Japan had already started annexing several countries by force before Germany started attacking Europe. Japan was waging war all over the asian continent for several years before WWII broke out. They did not declare war on the US until 1941. The US sent equipment, supplies and pilots into China a few years before our entry in WWII to help the Chinese fight against the Japanese who were waging war on China and starting to take over the whole country. By 1940 they had taken over China, Korea, Taiwan, Indochina(Vietnam) Thailand and Burma. They were by no means bystanders in WWII at anytime. They were at war with Russia in 1905. They however were on the allies side during WWI. Not sure what this has to do with Karate other than the fact that the Japanese were training their soldiers in karate.

The link with karate is that the political background provided the backdrop for the development of recent kata, Gekisai Dai Ichi and Ni.

But, with respect, your history as stated above is far from accurate. As to the history of Japan in the war against the allies, they did not start a declared war on the allies until after they declared war on the US after Pearl Harbour. They signed an agreement with the Axis powers, basically Italy and Germany in 1940 but they were not at war with the Allied Forces until December 1941. At the same time, Dec 1941, after Japan had waged war on Thailand for about 6 hours, Thailand signed a treaty with Japan to allow free passage in return for Japan helping Thailand regain its lost territories and Thailand declared war on Britain and the United States. They helped the Japanese invade Burma in 1942. The Japanese were not at war with Russia until 1945 having signed a treaty with Russia in 1941. Japan's war against China, Korea, etc was technically not part of WW2.
You also said they took over Taiwan. Taiwan was at this time under Japanese administration and had been since 1895. Taiwan was returned to China after WW2. :asian:

 

[twendkata71]

Ok, you maybe right about the WWII history somewhat, Japan did invade China a few years before WWII actually broke out 1937.
And you are right, I had my facts messed up after going back over historical information. The first Sino/Japanese war was in 1887-1895, which was over the annexation and colonization of Korea. Japan defeated China and took over control of Korea until 1945 when WWII ended. After 50 years of occupation, no wonder Korean Martial arts have so much Japanese martial arts influence(jujitsu,Karate[introduced in around 1930 or mid 30's] was mixed in with Taekkyon to become Tangsoo do and Taekwondo, Aikido/Aikijujutsu-became Hapkido, Kendo(Kumdo) During the occupation the Japanese outlawed all forms of Traditional Korean Martial Arts practice and only allowing practice of Japanese Martial arts. Basically they tried to make all Koreans,Japanese. their effort to wipeout Korean culture and martial arts failed eventhough they did have a lot of influence on the modern forms of Korean martial arts.
Sorry folks for the subject being so off topic. I am a history buff, sometimes my memory is not as good as it used to be. When I am corrected I look up the information and admit my error.
Now back to discussions about karate.

 

[b.monki]

well i read through some of the posts and i couldnt find anyone mentioning machida beating evans... machida is like untouchable in mma rightnow and he is text book karate without the blocks... and if you say mma aint reality fighting those guys train to not throw illegal shots which means they know a LOT of illegal shots so they wont do em int he ring... you dont think they wont visciously knee you in the balls or elbow you in the throat in the streets... i dont train in mma but those guys are built like beasts there cardio is bar none and they can take a beating you hit a pro mma a fighter in the throat or poke him in the eye your just gonna piss him off... and machida is owning the mma world with karate... he trains kata, he was a champion karate point fighter, you watch his karate point fighting its no different then his mma style which is pretty much just karate and bjj ya he trained in sumo too but doesnt look lik ehe uses much of that the same with bjj looks like he uses it just to counter the locks...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

b.monki,

Good observations. The reason you do not see any mention, however, is because this thread is quite old and upon its necro, it seems that the discussion has been mainly historical.

But I totally agree: Machida is a man that every karateka should be taking a good hard look at.

Daniel

 

[blindsage]

Machida is dope. No question.

But let's get real. You punch anybody in the throat, they have a problem. And eye injuries don't go over very well in any context, including MMA. Those guys are beasts and their conditioning is awesome, but some injuries are damaging to anybody. Next you're gonna say armbars are worthless because those guys are so well trained that you couldn't break their arms, just piss them off.

 

[goingd]

I will say this: Styles do not teach anything. Systems do not teach anything. Instructors teach. Most "real world" systems I've come across do not put such focus on "awareness" of what could happen, at least no more than most traditional systems I've come across.
People often don't take the time to analyze a style and see the equal potential in every aspect. The realism of traditional Karate is hidden in between the motions. The setup for a technique is a technique itself. Karate finds criticism because it's techniques are too often too slow to the mind's eye that chooses not to see the whole thing. When setting up for an inside block the opposite hand moves to the blocking point so that the block is done with more power. People only see the motion of the other hand as a setup for power. The setup itself deflects or even grabs the attack before the block even needs to.

... Just saying.