Why the number 9?

[shirobanryunotora]

Hi to all-was reading through the posts on the Philosophy &etc. section of this Forum and it occurred to me that the number 9 is often mentioned in regards to Ninjutsu(apart from the "elements" numbering 5). I have several of the books by Soke Hatsumi and others but couldnt find any real or definite explanation as to exactly why the number 9 in particular (as opposed to any other number) is mentioned/associated with our MA. I mean besides such as kuji-kiri basically meaning something like "nine hands cutting" and there being 81 associated mudra(9x9).
(is it a coincidence that Bujinkan encompasses 9 traditions?)

Why the number 9?
Is this number associated with such as Mikkyo tantricism or ...?
I found some references in western numerology books that treat the number 9 as being the "limitless number" being one away from "The unity" number 10 and etc but am unsure western thoughts on this number would apply to an eastern MA??
I recall the no.8 being considered lucky/important in china-does the no.9 mean similar in Japan?

Does anyone have any data on when/why etc the usage of no.9 began and its association with Ninjutsu? Is its usage historical or modern? Does the kanji for this number have other meanings? Any info appreciated.
Till the next-rr

 

[oaktree]

Hi to all-was reading through the posts on the Philosophy &etc. section of this Forum and it occurred to me that the number 9 is often mentioned in regards to Ninjutsu(apart from the "elements" numbering 5). I have several of the books by Soke Hatsumi and others but couldnt find any real or definite explanation as to exactly why the number 9 in particular (as opposed to any other number) is mentioned/associated with our MA. I mean besides such as kuji-kiri basically meaning something like "nine hands cutting" and there being 81 associated mudra(9x9).
(is it a coincidence that Bujinkan encompasses 9 traditions?)

The number 9 is mentioned in many CMA arts as well. I think it is also mentioned in other JMA and maybe in Korean arts.

Why the number 9?

Different reasons really depends on the context. In Onmyodo Uneven numbers are considered Yang and good luck Even numbers are Yin and cosidered not so lucky.
We find the number 9 also in the amount of Buddhas in The Mandala here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BuddhaLoutsSm.jpg
There is much more with the number 9.

Is this number associated with such as Mikkyo tantricism or ...?

It is but other numbers are just as meaningful such as 6,2,12,5 found in Mikkyo teachings.

I recall the no.8 being considered lucky/important in china-does the no.9 mean similar in Japan?

In China 8 is considered lucky 8 immortals, bagua and so on.9 is not a lucky number in Japanese nor is four. The word for 9 in Japanese is Ku and also you have this Ku:苦.
This Ku: 苦 means like torture, agony such as: Ri-ku, KU-tsuu, Ku-nou.
4 is Shi. Shi means death. I guess its fine you just step in dog poop and your fine again.

Does anyone have any data on when/why etc the usage of no.9 began and its association with Ninjutsu

That is a tough thing to research I think. I would think around Nara period maybe after it when Buddhism and Taoism started coming to Japan. I doubt before the Nara period it was being used.

 

[tenzen]

There are many reasons like you stated earlier 9x9 being the number of mudras, 9 divided by 3 is 3 which is another mystical number. 9 directions, also 9 is considered the last real number. Everything after 9 is combinations of numbers reaching into infinity. Not so sure about relation to the 9 schools. But that's the jist of it there.
Maybe chris will chime in and add more insight to this. The main thing though is it is the last number.

 

[elder999]

Maybe chris will chime in and add more insight to this. The main thing though is it is the last number.

Japanese numerals are entirely baased on Chinese numerals, with ten:十, being the last "single" (character) "digit"

9 is a homophone for "everlasting," or eternal in Chinese....

 

[Bruno@MT]

The fact that the Buj has 9 schools is purely coincidental, as those were simply the schools that Takamatsu sensei was soke of by the time he passed on his ryuha to Hatsumi sensei.

 

[Chris Parker]

Most has been covered (three being a power number, and nine being three groups of three etc), but to reiterate what Elder said, the last number is 10, not 9. And that's really the key, in some cases.

To show the difference, in English/Western counting, we have:
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10 (which is back to zero again, shown in the last digit).

In Japanese, we have
一 Ichi (one)
ニ Ni (two)
三 San (three)
四 Yon/Shi (four)
五 Go (five)
六 Roku (six)
七 Shichi (seven)
八 Hachi (eight)
九 Ku (nine)
十 Ju (ten)
十一 Ju-ichi (eleven, back to one again)

Interestingly, "zero" is rather different:零

Now, as I said, the fact that ten is actually the end, rather than nine, is rather important. Within the Gyokko Ryu there is the teaching "Always a nine, never a ten", which has the meaning of never taking things to their extreme. This is echoed in statements such as "Destroy the enemies power, but do not take their life". So, in essence, Tenzen was correct, but the details were closer to Elder's comment.

With regard to "when/why etc the usage of no.9 began and its association with Ninjutsu", I think again you're looking at the wrong thing. Ninjutsu is a product of the environment it was in, and, although unique in it's details, is no more unusual than any other product of the society and as a result, you should more be looking at why 9 is such an important number in aspects of Buddhism, rather than in Ninjutsu. From there, look to the influence of Buddhism on Ninjutsu.

 

[Jon-Bhoy]

Everyone should realise, Soke is a Beatles fan. Thats why..number nine, number nine, number nine...




*ok dumb joke.:angel:

 

[Stealthy]

Now, as I said, the fact that ten is actually the end, rather than nine, is rather important. Within the Gyokko Ryu there is the teaching "Always a nine, never a ten", which has the meaning of never taking things to their extreme. This is echoed in statements such as "Destroy the enemies power, but do not take their life". So, in essence, Tenzen was correct, but the details were closer to Elder's comment.

Absolutely Stellar perspective, thank you.

With regard to "when/why etc the usage of no.9 began and its association with Ninjutsu", I think again you're looking at the wrong thing. Ninjutsu is a product of the environment it was in, and, although unique in it's details, is no more unusual than any other product of the society and as a result, you should more be looking at why 9 is such an important number in aspects of Buddhism, rather than in Ninjutsu. From there, look to the influence of Buddhism on Ninjutsu.

My knowledge of Buddhism is very limited but you can know a persons rank by the number of yoga's a practitioner is permitted to perform and the rank of Nine is a very high level practice indeed, with some students at schools in China devoting their entire lives to practicing the Nine yoga's.

Curiously enough though there are higher practices the highest of which grants permission to partake in the yoga of invisibility(more aptly translated as the yoga of inconceivability) so it is unlikely this is the Nine implied within Ninjutsu though it must be said that a Ninja should never turn their backs on a practitioner of the Nine just because they are perceived as lesser practitioners.

For what it's worth there does not need to be a real "reason" for working nine into "stories". Put simply when creating a story(list of techniques, mythology, sacred artifacts, etc...) I always tie it into Nine in some way, purely because it adds a layer of mystery.

With Respect,
Stealthy.

 

[ride57]

Below is from the "Neijing" (referring to Taoist cosmology.)

#1 corresponds to heaven
#2 to earth
#3 to man
#4 to the seasons
#5 to sounds
#6 to rhythms
#7 to stars
#8 to wind
#9 to the continents

I just happened to be reading this ~2000 year old medical text. And read this this morning. It is a interesting book.

 

[skuggvarg]

2*9=18 (1+8=9)
3*9=27 (2+7=9)
4*9=36 (3+6=9)
.
.
.
9*9=81 (8+1=9)

and so on...

Regards / Skuggvarg

 

[Indagator]

2*9=18 (1+8=9)
3*9=27 (2+7=9)
4*9=36 (3+6=9)
.
.
.
9*9=81 (8+1=9)

and so on...

Regards / Skuggvarg

Hey, that's just like the pattern I learned as a child for the 9 times table!

Basically, you take the number that you are multiplying by 9, subtract one for the first digit and then the second digit is difference between the first digit and 9.

So, like

3 x 9 = (3-1=)2+(9-2=)7 = 27

Err...

Okay so your way was much simpler....

 

[shirobanryunotora]

Hi-am getting further intriguing correspondences with the number 9 within dates pertaining to my life.Wonder if any others have such within their lifedates and/or am i making too much of these coincidences.Used basic additions as per Skuggvarg"s method and numerology sequences to arrive at the following.

My birthdate is 25/11/1962.

2+5+1+1=9

1+9+6+2=18=1+8=9

2+5+1+1+1+9+6+2=27=2+7=9

In 1989 had enough money to travel to japan and finalised details to do so with A.MacDonald and E.Lomax.
In 1989 i was 27years old.

27=2+7=9

1+9+8+9=27=2+7=9

Hmm-thought would then look at Soke Hatsumi and prev.Soke Takamatsu-

2/12/1931
2+1+2+1+9+3+1=19=1+9=10=1+0=1

10/3/1889
1+0+3+1+8+8+9=30=3+0=3

Interesting to then look at ride57's number table.........

My 9=continents
Soke Hatsumin no.1=heaven
prev.Soke Takamatsu no.3=man

Thought something mystical was going on till-looked at my
license exp. date-

14/8/2012=1+4+8+2+0+1+2=18=1+8=9

Lol now-thought would share this with you all and see if anyone has comments-till the next rr

 

[Muawijhe]

Not to burst your bubble, but when it comes to numerology, if you find a number that has significance to you, then you will start seeing that number everywhere you look.

I don't want to take away that the number 9 is significant in your life, but I want to say that all numbers are. When you understand what numbers mean (in numerology), then it is a matter of finding all of the numbers and where they are in your life, how they correspond, etc., for greatest effect. Also, how you reduce your numbers (through multiplication, addition, subtraction, and so on) has significance as well.

Just thought I'd throw that in there. Keep finding the 9s and the other numbers and have fun!

 

[Indagator]

Not to burst your bubble, but when it comes to numerology, if you find a number that has significance to you, then you will start seeing that number everywhere you look.

for some reason this statement reminds me of that Jim Carrey film, The Number 23.

 

[Muawijhe]

for some reason this statement reminds me of that Jim Carrey film, The Number 23.

Probably because they said something similar in the movie. I'm sure they did limited research into numerology to have some basis for the film. The movie Pi said the same, I'm sure.

When I first started hobbying with gematria it was mentioned to me by those who had been around a while. So, take it for what it is. In retrospect I didn't mean for my above post to come off as authoratative on the subject in any regard. Enjoy!

 

[shirobanryunotora]

Not to burst your bubble, but when it comes to numerology, if you find a number that has significance to you, then you will start seeing that number everywhere you look.

I don't want to take away that the number 9 is significant in your life, but I want to say that all numbers are. When you understand what numbers mean (in numerology), then it is a matter of finding all of the numbers and where they are in your life, how they correspond, etc., for greatest effect. Also, how you reduce your numbers (through multiplication, addition, subtraction, and so on) has significance as well.

Just thought I'd throw that in there. Keep finding the 9s and the other numbers and have fun!

Hi- no, no bubble bursting taken at all.
Appreciate your comments and will keep an eye out so to speak for other such number coincidences etc. Seems an interesting approach to various aspects in ones life-thanks-till the next

 

[Stealthy]

Another Nine.

Okay this ones a little abstract without a picture.

They are the Nine Rings.

They look like Rings of a tree in the sense that a person is the core of the tree and the Rings around them represent different weapon ranges.

So the closest ring is the range of grappling.
The Second Elbows/Knees.
The Third is the range of punching without taking a step.
Fourth is kicking without taking a step.
Fifth is stepping and grappling.
Sixth stepping and Elbows/Knees.
Seventh is stepping and Punching.
Eighth is stepping and Kicking.
And Ninth is "well okay i made this up" but lets say it's Shuriken range.

If a person is outside the Fourth Ring then you know they cannot hit you(nor you them) without first taking a step, in my club we have a name for this range.

So if a person is in the seventh ring and makes a move you know they can only reach you with a kick or a punch.

And likewise if you want to flank a person and punch you know you need them to be in punching range when you get there.

I wonder if Musashi was refering to Rings of a tree.

 

[Chris Parker]

I wonder if Musashi was refering to Rings of a tree.

No. He wasn't.

 

[Stealthy]

No. He wasn't.

But it was such a good story

You know what they say, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".