Why the 9-11 conspiracies won't go away...

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC9-6-06.pdf
Ill take that guys word over your 300 eggheads with no real world experience on this topic any day.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC9-6-06.pdf

Just read the evidence man and have an open mind.

 

[Makalakumu]

This is a PDF file from the definitive voice in the demolition industry and what they think of the silly “controlled demolition” at the WTC theory Also titled: "Another smack in the head for the stupid people."

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC9-6-06.pdf

So, you want us to beleive the people who scrubbed the crime scene of evidence? They helped cart everything away before it could be properly studied! Conspiracy theorists are amazing!

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Good Science and 9-11 Demolition Theories

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm

 

[Blotan Hunka]

So, you want us to beleive the people who scrubbed the crime scene of evidence? They helped cart everything away before it could be properly studied! Conspiracy theorists are amazing!

Hmmm..so anybody involved in the clean-up was involved in the conspiracy? "Jesus visited the Inca" professors opinions are good....experts in the demolitions fields opinions are bad? Wrap it a little tighter.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

..

Protec and its employees have not been paid or hired by anyone to analyze this event, nor do we possess any political affiliations or contribute to any political party or individuals. We have undertaken this endeavor entirely at our own expense, with the singular goal of facilitating constructive dialog and providing a factual voice of reason to our friends and associates who were affected by the attack.

Our research team can personally verify the Lower Manhattan chain of possession, as we witnessed and documented this chain. We then reviewed activities that occurred at Fresh Kills by speaking with John Yannuzzi, President of Yannuzzi Demolition. Our team also reviewed commentary made by Dennis Dannenfelser, Yannuzzi’s Fresh Kills Site Supervisor, who oversaw the entire operation from start to finish and spoke candidly and extensively at the National Demolition Association’s annual Convention in March 2003. According to all parties, the steel went through the same series of steps as it would have on any other demolition project, albeit on a larger scale and with an increased presence of examiners. No one we spoke with perceived an attempt to “rush” or hide the process, and to the opposite, dozens if not hundreds of unrelated individuals – working for various entities and possessing various types of expertise – came in close contact with the steel over a period of months before it was eventually shipped overseas. In consideration of these first-hand experiences and interviews, and absent any dissenting commentary, we can find nothing to support this assertion.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Aww come on Blotan. Everyone knows that George Bush sent in his presidential Ninja to plant the explosives.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC9-6-06.pdf

Just read the evidence man and have an open mind.

Here are some problems with all of this...

1. The buildings did not look like controlled demolitions.

Yes, it did. WTC 1 and 2 substantially differed from WTC 7 so a different technique had to be used.

The assumption that rigging the building during the 55 minutes between the impact of the planes to the collapse of the buidings is a straw man. No one ever claimed that this was the time frame that all of this had to be done.

And, in fact, there were other opportunities to do this before 9/11.

Bomb-sniffing dogs were inexplicably removed from the Twin Towers five days before 9-11

The Twin Towers had been evacuated a number of times in the weeks preceding 9/11

There was a power down in the Twin Towers on the weekend before 9/11, security cameras were shut down, and many workers ran around busily doing things unobserved.

And -- as an interesting coincidence -- a Bush-linked company ran security at the trade centers, thus giving it free reign to the buildings.

2. The buildings met alot of resistance during collapse and did not fall in their own footprint.

WTC 1 and 2 feel in roughly 10 seconds. Even the government corroborates that. This is one second slower then freefall speed. If you look at the energy it would have taken to slow the building one second from free fall speed, it is not very much. Certainly not much when one considers the structural resistance that the supporting columns should have provided.

The fact that other buildings were damaged in the collapse indicates that the buildings were close together. The bulk of the debris fell right into a pile at the base and the damage was surely less then if the collapse had been asymetrical.

3. The squibs viewed were not the product of explosions, but were the product of air being forced out by pancaking floors.

Since even NIST has backpeddled on their Pancake Theory, this explanation has become obsolete. No pancaking = no mechanism to force air out.

4. Explosive testimony by eyewitnesses is subjective and seismic data should be used instead.

According to this reports own addendum, siesmic data from the instruments they used was unreliable at best. Further, if one takes into account the rapidity of collapse in a controlled demolition, and the synchonicity of the charges, separating the collapse vibrations from the explosive vibrations would be impossible.

5. Molten steel was not found at the base of the world trade center.

Slag salvaged from the WTC site has been tested and shown to contain high amounts of iron...exactly what one would expect if steel was molten. This corroborates eyewitness accounts of molten steel at the WTC site. The fact that some eyewitnesses claim that they did not see any molten metal is trumped by the fact that this slag was found and tested.

6. The debris was not quicly shipped away.

The official investigation into 9/11 did not begin for over a year after the event. All of the debris was moved before this investigation began. Thus, the assertion that the debris was shipped overseas before the investigation began stands. NIST was only allowed to use 0.5% of the debris in order to investigate.

7. WTC 7 was not a controlled demolition, it received damage that caused it to collapse.

Not according to FEMA report which only reported damage to the south east corner. This damage was assymetrical and in no way explains the completely symetrical collapse shown above. Again, this violates the laws of physics.

8. Many unprecedented things happened on 9/11, including the collapse of three steel framed buildings due to fire and extreme physical forces.

According to NIST, FEMA, and Silversteen/Wineberg insurance reports, the fire was considered the main cause of collapse. This is due to the fact that none of the damage even came close to exceeding the structural overplanning inherit in all of the buildings.

Further, it has been shown that the fires were not hot enough, did not burn long enough, and were not widespread enough to cause the collapse of these buildings.

9. If anyone knows of any studies that show hard evidence that explosives were used, please bring it to our attention.

This study will be published in the future in the Journal of 9/11 studies and perhaps in other journals that accept it after peer review.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hmmm..so anybody involved in the clean-up was involved in the conspiracy? "Jesus visited the Inca" professors opinions are good....experts in the demolitions fields opinions are bad? Wrap it a little tighter.

Everybody is part of the conspiracy...

btw - that is the sweetest tin hat I've seen yet...props.

 

[Makalakumu]

Good Science and 9-11 Demolition Theories

http://www.jnani.org/mrking/writings/911/king911.htm

There are other opinions out there like this where people have done some looking into the demolition hypothesis and I have to say that some of the points they bring up against it ARE good points. This is, IMHO, something that remains unproven in the scientific sense of the word.

With that being said, I think it is something that bears looking into and I think this for two reasons.

A. The governments version of events in insufficient in almost all ways at explaining the data present.
B. Some of the evidence found seems to support the demolition hypothesis.

IMHO, if this hypothesis was disproven, it would be the best for everyone. Like I said before, nobody wants to think that the government could do this and, if this is true, the implications threaten all that we wish to pass on to our children.

The only way to disprove this, though, and find out what really happened is to fully investigate all of the data present. I think that we need a new, fully independent, unbiased investigation that looks at all aspects of this. We deserve to know the truth of this matter.

upnorthkyosa

ps - Another reason why another investigation may be warrented is because the official explanation is so insufficient in explaining how these buildings really went down. Without knowing how this really happened, we basically are flying blind into situations where it could happen again...fires, accidents, natural disasters, etc. This puts the lives of our rescue workers and the people who occupy these buildings at risk.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Aww come on Blotan. Everyone knows that George Bush sent in his presidential Ninja to plant the explosives.

Yeah. And I will believe the opinions of people who demolish buildings with explosives for a living when they say that the WTC in no way could have been a controlled event. Those who buy it are deluded at best and mentally disturbed at worst IMO.

This very topic on the eve of the anniversary is despicable.

 

[hongkongfooey]

Yeah, it does seem a bit arrogant to disregard the opinion of someone that brings buildings down for a living.

If explosives were used to bring down the buildings, then why didn't the upper levels topple as soon as the planes hit the buildings? Let me guess the explosives were placed at lower levels. If that was the case why did the upper levels fail. Afterall, the Moonbats claim there was no way a fire could have caused the steel to fail.

I'll take my chances with the official report. Our government isn't perfect, but I don't believe that they were behind it.

 

[Don Roley]

So, you want us to beleive the people who scrubbed the crime scene of evidence? They helped cart everything away before it could be properly studied! Conspiracy theorists are amazing!

What a nice little way of avoiding dealing with anything that runs counter to what you want to believe. If it runs counter to the theory, the people must be in on the plot. And of course, you seem to be looking your nose down at other people for not seeing the same facts that you do.

But are you that knowledgable? You argue that the cameras were down on a weekend before 9-11 and many people ran around without being observed. That must have been the time that the explosives were set.

I am not an expert in demolition, but I do know enough to know that a controlled explosion of a building takes weeks to set the explosives. And nothing the size of the WTC has ever been done. And the steel cores of the supports were surrounded by concrete. To set the explosives, possibly thousands of people would have had to blast through the concrete and set the charges in less than 48 hours. And nobody noticed and no one on the team has ever come forward out of guilt or accidently revealed information.

That is just one example of how a little bit of information has been blown (no pun intended) out of proportion and made to sound more than it is.

That is the thing with conspiracy theories and why the people that promote them the most are usually out of touch with reality. They can take little facts and try to put together a picture out of them. If there is anything they can't explain or prove, it is part of the conspiracy. The real nut cases tend to accept contradictiory thoughts on the matter. For example, the idea that people in the goverment involved in the clean up and investigation are actively trying to cover up information. And yet, the FBI is sometimes quoted by them (not indicating Osama and listing him as left handed, etc) to back up their arguments. (In the case of the right hand, most south paws are really ambi and can use their right to a certain extent when the left is slightly injured.)

They build bigger and bigger conspiracies to cover up holes being blown in their arguments. Instead of just going with the goverment being part of this, they have to now say that Osama Bin Laden is part of the plot since he has not done what anyone else would do when blamed with this and deny it on his propaganda videos. Al- Queada now use the attack as a claim to fame, thus they now must be part of the conspiracy.

When you deal with reality, you have to deal with things that are not known. That is taken as "proof" by the conspiracy nuts. There will also be mistakes in remembering things, transmitting things and doing things. This will be considered as "proof" by the conspiracy nuts. And sometimes things happen that are highly unlikely, but happen anyway. A proffesor has a drill that he has never lost at. He has the entire class make up Xs or Os as if they were flipping a coin and reporting the results. One person does not and actually does flip a coin. Without fail the proffesor has always found the one real coin flip paper because people just can't get over how short term chances sometimes go. A real person would not think to put 9 straight heads in a row without some real thought, but it happens. So when a lot of really stupid things happen at once, people just can't believe that they were really just chance.

And some people who think they know more than the "sheeple" just would never admit that they were wrong, that they don't know as much as they want you to think.

 

[Don Roley]

This very topic on the eve of the anniversary is despicable.

I guess Bob has no problems with it if he is allowing it to go on. Part of the problem with the study (aside from some people that think that they can insult others because they pay money to martialtalk and get away with it) is the fact that those that have huge agendas (and the nut cases qualify) are looking for places to spread their lunacy. There are some people that almost never post about martial arts but have huge post counts due to their posting here. I expect things will get a lot worse as word gets out among the nutcases looking for places to convert others.

 

[FearlessFreep]

In defense of John, I wouldn't characterize him like that. He posts fairly regularly about MA, especially his art of Tang Soo Do, and his experience in those areas has me reading those posts with a great deal of interest and respect. I usually disagree with him political views to some degree, but that's just differences in opinion. I think he's gone a little off in the 9/11 conspiracy theory angle, but I wouldn't put him in the category off a nutcase trolling for converts.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Don,
I'm going to take exception with this crack. There are at least 3 supporting members on the ban list that I can recall, including one who had sent in several hundred bucks. There are others who have offered some significant ad money to be allowed to continue to spam the site. So, I'm rather insulted that anyone would say "Pay Bob, Get Free Pass".

Now, if they think that, then they simply think wrong. And, if there are enough complaints, if after careful discussion among the staff, if it is deemed needed, people will be warned, suspended and possibly banned. No refunds. As a former moderator, you know this.

But, so that things are clear to all:
- Take the personal issues off board
- If there is a real problem (and not just a personality clash) then report it.
- Don't bombard us with "Hes being a poopy head" level complaints.
- If one cannot handle the heat of this section, don't frequent it. It's political and religious and social debate. These will get heated. You will not agree. Such is life. Deal with it in a mature, adult, professional manner.
- Use the Ignore feature, and you will save much of your stomach lining.
- If you really think I am bribeable, send a WU for a few hundred bucks, then go to town. Butts have landed in the sand garden for much much less.

Any questions? Talk to me directly, or talk to my staff.

Now, we return you to your normal Black Ops discussion.

I guess Bob has no problems with it if he is allowing it to go on. Part of the problem with the study (aside from some people that think that they can insult others because they pay money to martialtalk and get away with it) is the fact that those that have huge agendas (and the nut cases qualify) are looking for places to spread their lunacy. There are some people that almost never post about martial arts but have huge post counts due to their posting here. I expect things will get a lot worse as word gets out among the nutcases looking for places to convert others.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The theories will not go away because:

- There are blanks in what the government told us.
- People didn't like the answers they were given.
- People do not want to believe that such an attack could be independently organized, and put into motion without "inside help".
- Many things have come to light which puts more questions out there, hat currently ave no answer.
- The current administrations secretive actions since have made people wonder about things.


Now, my personal opinion is that there are those in the Bush administration who were directly involved in allowing those attacks to happen, that events have been manipulated so that we end up where we are now, a less-free society, ore gov. invasion into our lives, and wars of economic conquest in several countries. But, I cannot point to a fact list and say "heres the smoking gun.".

I believe that the Secret Service was involved in the Kennedy assassination as well. Through leaving JFK unprotected, and destroying evidence afterwards. But, I can't prove it. I can just point to the various films and report and say "Read them, draw your own conclusions".

People will continue to look at the situation, and put their own spin on it. This is in fact, a good thing. It shows we can still think. Our logic and facts may often appear warped and "crazy'', but sometimes, nuggets of truth are found in there.

No one wants to believe that the US would resort to secret torture camps, racial profiling, and engage in war profiteering. But recent leaks concerning secret CIA prisons, torture in US run camps, and strange financial anomalies with those companies "rebuilding" Iraq, lead intelligent & free thinking people to question what is going on.

And, to remain a free society, to regain that which in the panic of the night we allowed to be stripped from us, we, as patriotic Americans must continue to question our government, to take it to task, and demand it be accountable for what it does in our name. To do otherwise is to spit on the memory of everyone who sacrificed and died in the name of freedom, and America.

 

[Kensai]

I don't know that I believe every conspiracy theory, however, nor would I believe everything/anything much that Bush's administration reported. I don't think there's anything wrong with not believing what your govt tell you, in fact I think it's healthy not to. In my very humble opinion, most politicians I've ever met/spoken to are either liars or grossly incompetant. I've found the lower the MP, the better in fact. Ergo, as a result, while some conspiracy theories are perhaps just that, perhaps they may be better labelled "conspiracy fantasies" than theories, some however, may be close to the mark.

As much as we like to think that there are universal truths, and there are some, there is also the concept of the truth depending upon a certain pov. I'd say staunch Republicans in the main probably would never accept that Bush's administration would be behind the 9/11 attacks, because as voters of that party, it's unpalatable to say the least. The same could be said in reverse of ardent democrats. "It was BUSH" they might cry, "he did it!"... Make no mistake though, this is now a world sized problem, and world sized crap has probably been fed to a lot of people. Misinformation in the current times is as important as information. If you (insert political party here) do have an agenda, then could it be seen as possible/probable that they would do anything to achieve that? Far fetched maybe, totally, and utterly, completely impossible....? I'd never put anything past Bush, or Blair, or any major leader of any major power. Sometimes the truth can be so simple as to be scary. I don't pretend to know what that truth is, but I do know that the world is going to hell in a hand cart, and B&B are in their own way, responsible for that.

 

[Don Roley]

Don,
I'm going to take exception with this crack. There are at least 3 supporting members on the ban list that I can recall, including one who had sent in several hundred bucks. There are others who have offered some significant ad money to be allowed to continue to spam the site. So, I'm rather insulted that anyone would say "Pay Bob, Get Free Pass".

Take a look at what I wrote.

aside from some people that think that they can insult others because they pay money to martialtalk and get away with it

I stated that my problem was with people who thought they could get away with things because they were paying members. I have seen one or two I can mention that took shots at someone right after a moderator dropped a warning into a thread. I did not mention any moderators or administration. I can understand why you would be distrurbed by a percieved personal attack on your honor having been the target of quite a few of them here myself. I apologize if you thought I was talking about you.

 

[Don Roley]

Now, my personal opinion is that there are those in the Bush administration who were directly involved in allowing those attacks to happen,

Now the problem I have with that is the fact that you have a whole lot of people involved in the intellegence gathering process as well as the decision making process. The idea that not even one of them balked at the idea of letting this plot go forward and went public, or had pangs of guilt and confessed, is not something I can believe. Even those not involved with the decision would be leaking what they know to the press. If say you were a transaltor that had helped to convert the plan into English, wouldn't you be really tempted to take the fact that you were working on detailed plans from the terrorists weeks before 9-11 to the networks? Tricky Dick could not keep a break in involving only a few people and killing no one a secret. Clinton was found out about a BJ and lying under oath and there are not that many people involved in that act.

Dick Channey (or was it Rumsfield?) was at the Pentagon when it was hit. Considering that you never know everything that the other guy knows or how things are going happen, it is beyond the realm of belief that they would let someone that high up be at the site of an attack.

It is easier to believe the goverment knew something but did not act than in actually having a part. Especially if you don't like the guys in office to begin with. But if you look at just how large the amount of people that could blow the lid off of it, and that no one has come forward to confess, it is just too much to believe. Most people think that there is only a few people involved in intellegence gathering in cases like this. But the fact is, from the clerks to the translators to the minor case officers assembling the data, there would be a lot of folks that could have shown that we knew what was going on before the fact.