Why some people still don't want to wear mask?

[EdwardA]

Okay. I'll say the same thing a little differently. When you're a fascist, everything else looks like Marxism. Better? And make no mistake, the USA is flirting dangerously close to fascism. I'm not sure our democracy survives another 4 years.

This is exactly why another warming was given, and that is a biased statement. I knew what you said earlier was a tell. Now you've confirmed it. You refuse to be neutral for the sake of the forum.

 

[Steve]

This is exactly why another warming was given, and that is a biased statement. I knew what you said earlier was a tell. Now you've confirmed it. You cannot be neutral for the sake of the forum.

lol. You found me out. You're very smart. I'm not neutral. Can you remind me what your point is? Or how about the unbiased neutrality rule? I must have missed that one.

 

[EdwardA]

Ignored, out of respect for the forum rules.

 

[drop bear]

Your statement was about points of view. That's pretty simple. I only used both terms to equate the two opposites....tho Stallin probably killed more people than anybody in history.

Ok.

But left and right is a point of perspective. A Democrat? (I hope I got that correct. The lefty ones) is still a capitalist. So to a Marxist a Democrat is a right winger. But to a neo Nazi a Democrat is a Marxist.

Making nobody really anything.

 

[dvcochran]

Kind of typing my response as I'm reading the article. Just some thoughts passing. If I don't type it I'll forget. So halfway through the article it looks COVID-19 financial support was rushed for good reasons. The US has had 189,000 deaths due to COVID-19. We weren't ready. It was either pay or not pay to try to save people lives. Kind of the Catch 22. But anyway half way in the article was this.

"Ask FactCheck reporter Angelo Fichera, who interviewed Jensen, noted, "Jensen said he did not think that hospitals were intentionally misclassifying cases for financial reasons. But that’s how his comments have been widely interpreted and paraded on social media."

Ask FactCheck's conclusion: "Recent legislation pays hospitals higher Medicare rates for COVID-19 patients and treatment, but there is no evidence of fraudulent reporting."" I can understand why it would cost more money to treat COVID-19. It's a new virus with no standard treatment. Treating the systems the way that you would normally treat them was actually making things worse.

So the questions becomes, "How much does it cost to treat an unknown disease that became a Pandameic?" What is the price tag that you would put on the effort to try to stop a pandemic? Do you stop trying when you hit $50,000 for the patient. How much does it cost to treat a COVID-19 patient with no previous information to go on? I know doctors like money but I think many of them would prefer the glory of being the doctor that contributed to the cure.


So I continued reading and they state that hospitals do get paid more for Treating Covid-19. But it's not a conspiracy or bad business. To sum it up: It just cost More to Treat a person with COVID-19 than it does to treat someone without it. Below is what was also on the same page you showed.

"We rate the claim that hospitals get paid more if patients are listed as COVID-19 and on ventilators as TRUE.

Hospitals and doctors do get paid more for Medicare patients diagnosed with COVID-19 or if it's considered presumed they have COVID-19 absent a laboratory-confirmed test, and three times more if the patients are placed on a ventilator to cover the cost of care and loss of business resulting from a shift in focus to treat COVID-19 cases.

This higher allocation of funds has been made possible under the Coronavirus Aid, Relief and Economic Security Act through a Medicare 20% add-on to its regular payment for COVID-19 patients, as verified by USA TODAY through the American Hospital Association Special Bulletin on the topic."


I'm not sure how you read this, but what I read seems normal. COVID-19 is not the flu. Different measures must be taken in order to deal with COVID-19. There are different costs associated with COVID-19 that you don't have when treating things like the flu.

As near as I can tell you read around the point(s) that confirm the hospitals are incentivised to code visits as COVID. I do not know how you can read around that.

 

[Steve]

Ignored, out of respect for the forum rules.

I could really use a link to that neutrality rule you're talking about, though. Which forum rule are you respecting, exactly?

 

[dvcochran]

Come on. You're so disingenuous. I read the article and it either doesn't say what you think it says, or you agree with me that a "for profit" healthcare system is a very bad idea.

I think single-payer is an excellent idea. Serious question. Did you read the article you posted? Yes or no.
I really don't understand what you're referring to by "blowback." I mean, you posted two things that seem incongruous, and you're saying good things as though they are bad things. A single payer system would be awesome for the country. Well, it would be awesome for the patients. it would be terrible for all of the money-grubbers who have their hands in the pot.

I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect health care system, but to fix the grift in our system and ensure everyone can get the care we need, we have to do at least 3 things: 1: Get profit out of the equation. It's immoral. 2: Control the outrageous costs and create a consistent payment schedule. At this point, the costs are hidden, are very arbitrary (and can vary wildly from facility to facility) and often patients have no choice where they get their care. 3: Related to the last is the illusion of choice. We have very few choices, and sometimes, even when we can exercise some choices, we are still screwed.

While single payer doesn't fix every problem within the medical system, it can fix every one of those things. It would eliminate the intentional confusion around billing. There would be no more "out of network" expenses. It would decouple healthcare from employment, freeing folks to take more entrepreneurial risk. It would save families from losing their retirement accounts and homes in order to pay for medical expenses. Everyone would be covered.

And all that said, I think America could come up with a great system. We have pretty much every other wealthy, industrialized nation in the world to look at for inspiration.

Well, everyone knows by now you are going to rebuke and attack me no matter what I say. You attack even when I have said nothing. Just continues to show how bad your form is and your poor character. Shallow. Very, very shallow.

As for you 3 things:
1) When leveraged and used effectively with regulatory control profit is the most power tool possible to facilitate change in the healthcare system.
2.) It is a three headed demon: hospitals, pharmaceuticals, and insurance companies. Again, regulation not totalitarian control from a political/social structure that knows nothing about the inner workings is the only way to ever help correct the system. Take the profit out of the equation and all you do is create an industry that quality people (doctors/nurses) do not want to work for. We will end up with the terrible care you hear about in socialized economies. I do agree that it needs to be totally blown up in a sense. To the point their needs to be much more separation in some areas and streamlining in others.
3.) What? More self created delusion.

Funny. Sad but funny. Take a poll from every industrialized country and see where the US stands. I will modify a commonly made statement. If it is so bad here in the US move north across the border.

You have traveled around. Have you ever had to use socialized medicine in a totally private sense (not military)?

 

[dvcochran]

I do not wish to disagree with you. Hospitals break even or lose money on C-19 cases. They can not do option surgery so hospitals are losing money. Your logic has gone out the window.

In the states, elective surgery was put on hold due to the uncertain infection rate of the virus. At least in TN they continued elective surgery in August.
I cannot speak to the claims of lost money but do not see how it is possible since a visit to the doctor for cold/flu symptoms is billed at about a factor of just over 9 times more if C-19 is applied. So for the vastly greater number of C-19 cases where a person just felt crappy, (cold/flu symptoms) and was nothing more that an office visit, the hospital/doctor made almost 10 times more money. Great incentive to use the virus to make money.
We all know most everyone in healthcare seemed to be working double overtime in areas. There may be a low curve, slingshot effect going on with payouts but there is no denying the incentives for using C-19 to make money in the healthcare industry.

 

[Steve]

Well, everyone knows by now you are going to rebuke and attack me no matter what I say. You attack even when I have said nothing. Just continues to show how bad your form is and your poor character. Shallow. Very, very shallow.

I haven't attacked you. I have focused on your behavior. You posted a link from 1986, and I just don't believe you read carefully before sharing it. As I said before, if you actually read the article and agree with it, I think you're more in favor of single payer than you may realize. There is much in that article that I agree with wholeheartedly, and we've seen the impact of many of the observations magnify over the last 35 years.

As for you 3 things:
1) When leveraged and used effectively with regulatory control profit is the most power tool possible to facilitate change in the healthcare system.

I agree that profit can be a powerful motivator. The issue isn't whether profit is motivating.

I also agree that regulatory control is critical. It's like the conscience for business, keeping people from doing things they shouldn't.

Where we disagree is that profit and healthcare is moral. I do not believe so. When you introduce powerfully motivating, base impulses like greed into the equation, pitting that against misery, greed wins.

2.) It is a three headed demon: hospitals, pharmaceuticals, and insurance companies. Again, regulation not totalitarian control from a political/social structure that knows nothing about the inner workings is the only way to ever help correct the system. Take the profit out of the equation and all you do is create an industry that quality people (doctors/nurses) do not want to work for. We will end up with the terrible care you hear about in socialized economies. I do agree that it needs to be totally blown up in a sense. To the point their needs to be much more separation in some areas and streamlining in others.
3.) What? More self created delusion.

I don't know what to do with this. It's just so fundamentally flawed, I honestly don't know where to start. I mean, you manage to imply that every healthcare worker in every country with a single payer system is a not a quality person, and also suggest that the quality of care in those countries is terrible. Both, I think, are ignorant mischaracterizations.

Funny. Sad but funny. Take a poll from every industrialized country and see where the US stands. I will modify a commonly made statement. If it is so bad here in the US move north across the border.

Now, this is something I can work with. Data! Turns out, there are a lot of polls. You seem to consider the NIH a credible source. This is an article I read earlier this year, when I was knocking on doors during the primaries. It's from 2012, so it's not the most current, but it's still very relevant. For context, it was written shortly after the ACA was ratified in 2010.

Comparisons of Health Care Systems in the United States, Germany and Canada

Turns out, in America, about 58% of folks overall are in favor of a single payer system. Here's a link to a Kaiser Health Tracking Poll from 2015, so in the run up to the LAST election. Kaiser Health Tracking Poll: December 2015

In the USA, we spend more on healthcare (by a lot), including among the highest administrative costs by far than most other countries, have the lowest life expectancy of any comparable country, and people are the LEAST satisfied with their care. There is also well documented systemic racism within the system that results in a disproportionate number of issues for people of color than for white patients.

Here's a link to a relevant Gallup poll from 2015 (again, in the run up to the last election): Ratings of U.S. Healthcare Quality No Better After ACA

STORY HIGHLIGHTS

• 53% of Americans rate healthcare quality in U.S. positively
• One in three rate U.S. healthcare coverage positively
• Fewer than one in four satisfied with cost of healthcare

Digging into actual satisfaction numbers, folks with government managed health care (military, veterans, Medicare, and Medicaid) are the most satisfied with the way the health care system is working.
Americans With Government Health Plans Most Satisfied

You have traveled around. Have you ever had to use socialized medicine in a totally private sense (not military)?

Lastly, regarding where we rank, maybe this will be helpful: U.S. health care system ranks lowest in international survey

And about travelling, what kind of experience do you have with universal healthcare?

Also, I wonder why you would separate military healthcare, which is a single payer system, with all of its strengths and weaknesses, as somehow different. Can you explain that more?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ignored, out of respect for the forum rules.

I'm with you on this one. I don't like the classifications and labels. It starts everything Sunday2020

As near as I can tell you read around the point(s) that confirm the hospitals are incentivised to code visits as COVID. I do not know how you can read around that.

Show me where it says that Hospitals are incentivized to code visits as COVID. Point that out to me.

 

[Steve]

I'm with you on this one. I don't like the classifications and labels. It starts everything Sunday2020

Fair enough. Another way to say the same thing is, if the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The thread is showing me that we are reading the same articles but aren't getting the same message out of it. There seems to be one group that reads it and accepts it at face value and another group that "reads into it" as if there's a secret message. If everyone has a perspective. I wonder if the people who take it for face value usually talk that way in everyday conversations. While the other group "talks in code" where they aren't just coming out and saying what they mean, but kind of beats around the conversation in a way that forces people to try to figure stuff out.

You and I read the articles is it's literally stating what are claiming. Then Dvcochran makes a statement saying that I'm "reading the point" I think my new approach is going to ask 2 questions from now own.
1. What was the point in the article
2. What do you think the article is saying.

Stuff like that could cause tons of misunderstanding and cause a severe break down in communication.

In my everyday communications, I tend to take the word of a person and match it up with their actions. But I've met people who have said to me directly "Marvin I can't figure you out." I'm always shocked because there's not much to figure out about me. I'm fairly straight forward. There's never a secret agenda with me.

 

[Steve]

The thread is showing me that we are reading the same articles but aren't getting the same message out of it. There seems to be one group that reads it and accepts it at face value and another group that "reads into it" as if there's a secret message. If everyone has a perspective. I wonder if the people who take it for face value usually talk that way in everyday conversations. While the other group "talks in code" where they aren't just coming out and saying what they mean, but kind of beats around the conversation in a way that forces people to try to figure stuff out.

You and I read the articles is it's literally stating what are claiming. Then Dvcochran makes a statement saying that I'm "reading the point" I think my new approach is going to ask 2 questions from now own.
1. What was the point in the article
2. What do you think the article is saying.

Stuff like that could cause tons of misunderstanding and cause a severe break down in communication.

In my everyday communications, I tend to take the word of a person and match it up with their actions. But I've met people who have said to me directly "Marvin I can't figure you out." I'm always shocked because there's not much to figure out about me. I'm fairly straight forward. There's never a secret agenda with me.

Good points. Anything unclear about the links I shared? I try to provide some context along with the links, so it's clear why I'm sharing it.

 

[Bruce7]

As near as I can tell you read around the point(s) that confirm the hospitals are incentivised to code visits as COVID. I do not know how you can read around that.

I have friends and relatives on the front lines in hospitals and statements like your hurts them. They are honest to God hero in my book.

 

[dvcochran]

I have friends and relatives on the front lines in hospitals and statements like your hurts them. They are honest to God hero in my book.

I fully agree. But that is a different topic isn't it? I am in no way marginalizing what they are doing. Let me be very clear; I thank them for their efforts, now through this virus and all other times.
My apologies if the statements sounded wrong or were taken the wrong way.

 

[dvcochran]

I'm with you on this one. I don't like the classifications and labels. It starts everything Sunday2020
Show me where it says that Hospitals are incentivized to code visits as COVID. Point that out to me.

I did. It is in the link I added earlier.

 

[dvcochran]

The thread is showing me that we are reading the same articles but aren't getting the same message out of it. There seems to be one group that reads it and accepts it at face value and another group that "reads into it" as if there's a secret message. If everyone has a perspective. I wonder if the people who take it for face value usually talk that way in everyday conversations. While the other group "talks in code" where they aren't just coming out and saying what they mean, but kind of beats around the conversation in a way that forces people to try to figure stuff out.

You and I read the articles is it's literally stating what are claiming. Then Dvcochran makes a statement saying that I'm "reading the point" I think my new approach is going to ask 2 questions from now own.
1. What was the point in the article
2. What do you think the article is saying.

Stuff like that could cause tons of misunderstanding and cause a severe break down in communication.

In my everyday communications, I tend to take the word of a person and match it up with their actions. But I've met people who have said to me directly "Marvin I can't figure you out." I'm always shocked because there's not much to figure out about me. I'm fairly straight forward. There's never a secret agenda with me.

There is a third group. Those that read the article(s) and ignore the parts they do not agree with.

 

[dvcochran]

I have focused on your behavior.

You are truly a desperate, strange individual. You think what you post on a MA forum is 'focusing my behavior'. You are consistently hilarious however.

When you introduce powerfully motivating, base impulses like greed into the equation, pitting that against misery, greed wins

You see profit as greed? Truly strange. Do make a profit at whatever job you do?

Kaiser family is extreme leftist. Period. I am not surprised you referenced them however.

I am not going to waste time commenting on the rest. Just pointless with you.

 

[Steve]

You are truly a desperate, strange individual. You think what you post on a MA forum is 'focusing my behavior'. You are consistently hilarious however.

You see profit as greed? Truly strange. Do make a profit at whatever job you do?

Kaiser family is extreme leftist. Period. I am not surprised you referenced them however.

I am not going to waste time commenting on the rest. Just pointless with you.

That post seems over the line to me.

About the only thing I can respond to, since you sort of asked, I don't know anything about the Kaiser family or their politics. All I know is that Kaiser is the original health insurance company in America. They were the first to provide any sort of "pre-paid" health care. I referenced them because they did a study that is relevant, and they're literally the OG Health Insurance company in the USA.

Fun fact: I still have my grandfather's Kaiser medical card from when he worked on the Liberty Ships in WWII at the Kaiser shipyards as a welder. He carried it in his wallet from WWII until he passed in the 90s, so it was clearly important to him.

Regarding the rest, the part you didn't want to waste your time commenting on is the 80% of my post where I shared links to information and articles from sources like Gallup and the NIH, while providing some context so you know why I posted the links and what I think they mean. Cool. But if you're not going to address the data, why post a response at all?

Edit: So, I went back to reread the thread. I think you're escalating, and you're getting increasingly bold, and saying things that are more and more overtly insulting. I will admit that I'm getting pretty tired of your increasingly nasty tone. This isn't the first time you've called me strange, desperate or other things, and you need to fix that. Disagree with my posts, fine. I disagree with most of yours. But you need to stop with the personal attacks.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

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William Hollwedel
@Monkey Turned Wolf
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