Why Krav Maga works

[Gerry Seymour]

I am not a fan of this argument. If the guy attacking you is really that bad, then a few jumping jacks, sit ups and push ups should be good.

The guy on the street attacking you, has probably done this before. He is attacking you in a way that has worked for him in the past. It is very likely it will work again. Sure, he is completely "untrained." But, what he is doing, he learned to do in the "street." He learned how to do this by doing it to people that did not want it done to them. He has probably done this to other guys trying to do their thing to him. He might not have gone to a dojo... But every time he tried it, it was on the "street," for real, with real consequences.

I think we are the ones with the fantasies. We go into a dojo or gym, we have some instruction and we try a few times. We work with people who want us to succeed, who don't really want to hurt us and we all expect to go home safe and sound. The fantasy part is where we think that makes us ready for the "untrained" guy on the street. That guy only knows 2 moves. But see those 2 moves he knows, puts people down for real, on the streets.

We need to train harder. We need to test ourselves better. But we also need to know better who we are. I am a guy that works in an office, and trains a few hours a week, with people that don't really want to hurt me. (even if I am sparring, rolling, doing situational drills, multiple attacker, weapon work... they still want me to go home alright) KM wants you to be safe at the end of class as well.

I think that's not a common case, either. For most men, the most common fight/attack threat is an angry man, not an experienced thug carefully choosing his fights. Angry men come in all sizes and skill levels, with a small proportion (probably smaller than the general population) being well trained and another small proportion (probably larger than the general population) having significant experience in being in fights.

The selection of a victim is a different dynamic, and is more about a surge attack, which will have different dynamics from a fight. This is far more common for women than the first scenario, but is probably not going to involve an experienced street fighter (different dynamic), but someone who has "done the math" and decided they have enough of an advantage to go for it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good points. MMA is fantastic. I don’t think there is a better way to learn how to fight. Traditional arts are good too. It really is how you train.

Not all Krav is the same. You ideally want instructors that have trained in Israel. This school encorporates BJJ into their curriculum.

http://www.israelikrav.com/

I'm not at all a fan of "they should be trained in X country" for any art. I've heard that argument for many years in Japanese MA. I've only ever seen any real evidence of it when an art is fairly new and there's not yet much instruction outside that country.

 

[jobo]

Firstly, that wouldn't be a starting point for any attack - that's a position you might find yourself in later. And the video at that point is actually talking about BJJ. Oh, and the groin isn't all that exposed there, in actual practice.

Not exposed how exactly, the groin extends a fair way up you know, you don't need to be able to hit the genitals to cause a lot of damage

 

[jobo]

Good points. MMA is fantastic. I don’t think there is a better way to learn how to fight. Traditional arts are good too. It really is how you train.

Not all Krav is the same. You ideally want instructors that have trained in Israel. This school encorporates BJJ into their curriculum.


I really haven’t bought into KM marketing. I do know though that this school is top notch.
http://www.israelikrav.com/

Why is Israeli Km, better exactly, did it tell you that in the booklet?

 

[TMA17]

Everything is great and works, but also sucks and is ineffective.

Lately I’ve been watching some of Nick Drossos videos. Some good tips.

At the MMA school I am attending we spar a lot. The instructor is big on sparring. Of the hour class, 20-30 minutes is sparring. It’s really the only way you learn how to fight.

 

[TMA17]

Why is Israeli Km, better exactly, did it tell you that in the booklet?

No David Kahn suggested it and he was I believe referring to quality control.

David Kahn

I believe he said this during an interview. I can see his point as Krav is popping up all over the place AKA Fitness Krav. It’s watered down.

All these guys think their way is best. My instructor was a Marine and grew up with Karate. He got away from Karate because he didn’t like how they were giving everyone black belts like candy so he took up MT and BJJ. His karate, according to him, is top notch. Lot of sparring.

 

[Flying Crane]

While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.

If you want to claim that Krav Maga is a good system, I have no problem with that. I know nothing about the method, so I am willing to take your word for it.

When you start elevating it above all others by saying things like
“ it’s one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA”, well no, you are wrong.

If you like it and you feel it is effective, then by all means you should do it. You do not need to justify that to us or anyone else. But that is where it ends.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not exposed how exactly, the groin extends a fair way up you know, you don't need to be able to hit the genitals to cause a lot of damage

Someone in that position isn't likely to be upright. In most cases, they'll be leaning forward on the attack, which makes getting any solid strike at their groin problematic.

EDIT: And you'd be on your back, defending - not much leverage or maneuverability to get a good strike in.

 

[TMA17]

We use gloves at the MMA gym. In Krav they teach with gloves but also lots of palm strikes.

Here is a scenario at one Krav school (not the one I visited). I don’t see how this is not good training? Full strength in wrestling just not punching.

“Tonight we ran, what in my humble opinion, was a great drill in our ground class. The defender would get on the ground and 1 attacker would put him in any type of ground control desired - side control, mount, scarf hold, etc. After 5 seconds of trying to get up/reverse a 2nd attacker would with 16oz gloves would start hitting the defender.

This completely changed the game for me. Instead of wrestling attacker #1 I had to position myself to reduce strikes to vulnerable areas like my head and try and keep the 2nd guy at bay until I could break out. I didn't have time to play chess w/attacker #1 I had to minimize damage while controlling the access attacker #2 had AND try and escape.

We did this at full strength wrestling power but very limited punching power.

Also I had an epiphany when I was attacker #1. Instead of defeating the defender on my own my goal was to get the defender in a vulnerable position so that my buddy attacker #2 could wail on his face.

Some really good lessons learned tonight. I look forward to doing this drill again. And again w/weapons.”

 

[jobo]

Someone in that position isn't likely to be upright. In most cases, they'll be leaning forward on the attack, which makes getting any solid strike at their groin problematic.

EDIT: And you'd be on your back, defending - not much leverage or maneuverability to get a good strike in.

I'm confused now, the guy kneeling is Or can easily be up right and we'll with in range of the probes guys groin. the prOne guy is covering his face, which is pretty much out of range anyway, if you can't get good leverage on the groin, the AbS ,make a tempting tarket,

 

[jobo]

No David Kahn suggested it and he was I believe referring to quality control.

David Kahn

I believe he said this during an interview. I can see his point as Krav is popping up all over the place AKA Fitness Krav. It’s watered down.

All these guys think their way is best. My instructor was a Marine and grew up with Karate. He got away from Karate because he didn’t like how they were giving everyone black belts like candy so he took up MT and BJJ. His karate, according to him, is top notch. Lot of sparring.

Your not telling me why quality cControl is better in Israel? Just stating that it is, you do know that km, wasn't invented in Israel don't you

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm confused now, the guy kneeling is Or can easily be up right and we'll with in range of the probes guys groin. the prOne guy is covering his face, which is pretty much out of range anyway, if you can't get good leverage on the groin, the AbS ,make a tempting tarket,

Why would he be upright? What would be his reason for sitting up like that? And if he's leaning forward, you won't have much power to hit his abs, either.

It's not that these aren't good options when they present, but I've heard far too many SD-focused folks (including some of my training partners over the years) refer to these as easy answers to mount. Even an untrained person in mount is not likely to sit up and give you good access to strong strikes to those areas, unless he's doing something that makes sitting up useful, like bashing you (at which point, it's difficult to pull off those power strikes from your back). That's why escape and control techniques are useful. I can sometimes get the person in mount to give me access to those strikes if I make them avoid my escape and control techniques. Of course, more often, I'll actually get the escape or control the technique is designed for.

 

[TMA17]

jobo, yes I do know that. Again I don’t know I’m going by what he said. Quite frankly I don’t care. QC is an issue within any art.

 

[jobo]

Why would he be upright? What would be his reason for sitting up like that? And if he's leaning forward, you won't have much power to hit his abs, either.

It's not that these aren't good options when they present, but I've heard far too many SD-focused folks (including some of my training partners over the years) refer to these as easy answers to mount. Even an untrained person in mount is not likely to sit up and give you good access to strong strikes to those areas, unless he's doing something that makes sitting up useful, like bashing you (at which point, it's difficult to pull off those power strikes from your back). That's why escape and control techniques are useful. I can sometimes get the person in mount to give me access to those strikes if I make them avoid my escape and control techniques. Of course, more often, I'll actually get the escape or control the technique is designed for.

I really am confused now, are we discussing the same thing? The guy kneeling would be upright so he can punch the guy lying down in the groin and or abs, there no point trying head shorts, it's nearly out of range and he has his hands on the way

 

[jobo]

jobo, yes I do know that. Again I don’t know I’m going by what he said. Quite frankly I don’t care. QC is an issue within any art.

But he is selling you something, he told you and you with out question tell us as a fact

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really am confused now, are we discussing the same thing? The guy kneeling would be upright so he can punch the guy lying down in the groin and or abs, there no point trying head shorts, it's nearly out of range and he has his hands on the way

Try it. He won't be entirely upright - he has to lean in to get power to those strikes, which occludes the abs and reduces the exposed groin. If he leans in further (for control, strangles, elbows), the groin is even less exposed. And all of that also puts you in a position where strikes are weak, and a weak strike to the groin (especially when the testicles are not available) is unlikely to be very effective.

 

[jobo]

Try it. He won't be entirely upright - he has to lean in to get power to those strikes, which occludes the abs and reduces the exposed groin. If he leans in further (for control, strangles, elbows), the groin is even less exposed. And all of that also puts you in a position where strikes are weak, and a weak strike to the groin (especially when the testicles are not available) is unlikely to be very effective.

I've just looked at the picture again, there is no impediment to a groin strike, it doesn't need to be all that hard to be effective, though you could generate a fair but if power just with a hammer strike

 

[TMA17]

But he is selling you something, he told you and you with out question tell us as a fact

Let me clarify. I don’t believe that in order to have good Krav the instructors have to be from Israel. I’m sure he too knows there are many other non Israeli instructors that are fantastic. I believe I heard this in an interview where he had mentioned that a good sign to look for is someone that has had some training there or with someone that did train there in the Israeli KM system. If I am wrong I apologize but that is what I believe he said.

 

[jobo]

Let me clarify. I don’t believe that in order to have good Krav the instructors have to be from Israel. I’m sure he too knows there are many other non Israeli instructors that are fantastic. I believe I heard this in an interview where he had mentioned that a good sign to look for is someone that has had some training there or with someone that did train there in the Israeli KM system. If I am wrong I apologize but that is what I believe he said.

I'm sure he did, and that's his ( biased) opinion, but that doesn't make it a fact

 

[wab25]

jobo, yes I do know that. Again I don’t know I’m going by what he said. Quite frankly I don’t care. QC is an issue within any art.

Yes, QC is hard for any art. But, to me, the biggest problem with KM is the QC. The clip that started this thread, began with some guy being introduced with his belt rank in KM. They needed to tell us, that he was a second degree black belt in KM. Then at the end, they wanted to sell me an online KM instruction course membership, from which I can earn belt ranks.

I know of and have been invited to pay for weekend long seminars, where I could learn KM and earn my KM instructors license in the same 3 day, weekend seminar. I have been to KM seminars where they taught us the "KM gun disarm." The same one you can easily find on youtube. This disarm will get you killed, as you never move off line, and you put yourself in the weaker position and the other guy in the strong position... lots wrong with this disarm. However, if you hunt around and find the KM gun disarm taught by one of the original KM guys, you see something entirely different... something that only vaguely resembles the "KM gun disarm," as commonly taught. This gun disarm addresses every issue, move off line, get behind, put yourself in the superior position... all the things the other guys not only don't do, but teach you not to do.

Every art has this issue. But, to continue to spread your art by weekend seminar and online video courses... you are asking for QC issues. As a student, you are likely being taught mediocre TKD, Karate, Jujitsu, kick boxing.... mixed with what some guy (who only has mediocre abilities in an art he studied years for) can pick up in a weekend.

I have respect for the real KM. I am sure it is effective. Its just very hard to find the real deal from the Crap Maga.