Why do TMAs have more difficulty in the ring/octagon?

[Stonebrow]

I was a wrestler, so consider my bias. Wrestling requires a level of athleticism that isn't really matched by any other human activity. We regularly had football players come out for the team who couldn't handle the preseason conditioning - and those were the easy part of the season. By the end of the season we were doing 100 pushups for warmups, among other exercises. We could easily burn off a pound in a single six minute wrestling match. That's the equivalent of about 45 minutes as a lineman in a football game - in 6 minutes.

People lose MMA/UFC matches because their bodies are tired, not because they got punched hard. TMA athletes aren't typically in the kind of shape grappling sports require. Only grappling can prepare you for grappling.

 

[K-man]

I was a wrestler, so consider my bias. Wrestling requires a level of athleticism that isn't really matched by any other human activity. We regularly had football players come out for the team who couldn't handle the preseason conditioning - and those were the easy part of the season. By the end of the season we were doing 100 pushups for warmups, among other exercises. We could easily burn off a pound in a single six minute wrestling match. That's the equivalent of about 45 minutes as a lineman in a football game - in 6 minutes.

People lose MMA/UFC matches because their bodies are tired, not because they got punched hard. TMA athletes aren't typically in the kind of shape grappling sports require. Only grappling can prepare you for grappling.

Firstly, welcome to MT.

You are exactly right when you talk of the exertion required to wrestle hard for six minutes. The point is many of us have no desire to roll around on the floor for six minutes. Those of us who consider we train TMAs do not train with that eventuality in mind. Of course the other thing with wrestling is, a 65 kilo guy is going to have no chance against a 120 kilo guy. So you bring in weight classes to even the contest. That doesn't happen in a reality based scenario. If we wanted to wrestle we would train to wrestle, not TMA.
:asian:

 

[Stonebrow]

I'm not trying to disparage martial arts. I'm on a forum called Martial Talk for crying out loud...

The question was why TMA aren't more successful at UFC style fights. UFC fights are wrestling matches with punches. TMA don't prepare a human body for that.

BTW, I was a 65 kilo guy and I practiced against the 120 kilo guys. You just have to stay out from under them... They make a much more impressive sound when they hit the ground.

 

[K-man]

I'm not trying to disparage martial arts. I'm on a forum called Martial Talk for crying out loud...

The question was why TMA aren't more successful at UFC style fights. UFC fights are wrestling matches with punches. TMA don't prepare a human body for that.

BTW, I was a 65 kilo guy and I practiced against the 120 kilo guys. You just have to stay out from under them... They make a much more impressive sound when they hit the ground.

Um .. yes, that's why I am discussing it with you, and after all the topic is "Why TMAs have difficulty in the ring", nothing to do with whether they are successful or not. And yes, you are right. TMAs don't prepare you for that. Hence my comment that if I wanted to wrestle I would train to wrestle. If I wanted to compete in MMA I would train for MMA. Did I say something wrong to deserve such a snappy response?

 

[Tez3]

I'm not trying to disparage martial arts. I'm on a forum called Martial Talk for crying out loud...

The question was why TMA aren't more successful at UFC style fights. UFC fights are wrestling matches with punches. TMA don't prepare a human body for that.

BTW, I was a 65 kilo guy and I practiced against the 120 kilo guys. You just have to stay out from under them... They make a much more impressive sound when they hit the ground.

The UFC isn't MMA, the UFC is a for profit business, the style is MMA and in countries such as the UK where there is very little wrestling the base grappling styles are Judo and BJJ. This is true for a large part of the rest of the world. MMA isn't 'a wrestling match with punches at all', I've seen a good many fights which never went to the ground. An MMA fight is a match between two fighters who will have studied each others style and worked out tactics which they will believe work against their opponent ie a fighter who is predominately a striker will be taken down to the ground, a fighter who is predominately a 'grappler' will be kept standing if possible. It's been described as 'physical chess' for a reason. Basing a knowledge of MMA on one promotion albeit a large one is not ideal.

 

[drop bear]

Firstly, welcome to MT.

You are exactly right when you talk of the exertion required to wrestle hard for six minutes. The point is many of us have no desire to roll around on the floor for six minutes. Those of us who consider we train TMAs do not train with that eventuality in mind. Of course the other thing with wrestling is, a 65 kilo guy is going to have no chance against a 120 kilo guy. So you bring in weight classes to even the contest. That doesn't happen in a reality based scenario. If we wanted to wrestle we would train to wrestle, not TMA.
:asian:

That is kind of a real theory though. There were these mma scholarships and they demanded a wrestling background due to the work ethic required to to be any good at it.

I will see if I can find it.

A 65 kilo guy can't beat a 120 kilo guy if they have matched ability. Hence why the weight classes.

 

[Hanzou]

The UFC isn't MMA, the UFC is a for profit business, the style is MMA and in countries such as the UK where there is very little wrestling the base grappling styles are Judo and BJJ. This is true for a large part of the rest of the world.

To be fair, Judo and Bjj are very similar to wrestling in terms of general style, and takes a lot of its moves from wrestling. In some circles, Judo and Bjj are considered forms of wrestling.

 

[Tez3]

To be fair, Judo and Bjj are very similar to wrestling in terms of general style, and takes a lot of its moves from wrestling. In some circles, Judo and Bjj are considered forms of wrestling.

or wrestling takes a lot of it's moves from Judo and BJJ lol. I think most cultures have some form of wrestling. Some like Cornish wrestling might not be what people are used to though. Still MMA is still not wrestling with strikes! I have heard complaints before that MMA is kickboxing ruined by groundwork. We can't win really.

 

[Stonebrow]

It's hard to tell tone in a chat room! I was mostly just excited to be having a discussion instead of reading one. Thanks!

 

[Tez3]

It's hard to tell tone in a chat room! I was mostly just excited to be having a discussion instead of reading one. Thanks!

Do what I do, use the little smiley things or 'lol' if you don't want it to be taken as being stern, and French when you are being sarcastic lol. It is difficult though, having the same discussion on a Guiding site, some think people are being rude when they think they are being blunt etc. One lady writes short posts which some think are also rude but she has dyslexia so needs to get all info out in a short sentence.

Anyway I digress, my pet hate is when people think the UFC is MMA and think that whatever happens in the UFC is typical of MMA. Sadly that's becoming more and more untrue as the UFC bangs out shows every week with more and more unknowns (and ticket prices are extortionate) who are sticking to a certain routine which they think is what is wanted. Finding innovative fighters in the UFC is getting harder and harder as it seems they are coming off a production line these days.

 

[Buka]

It's hard to tell tone in a chat room! I was mostly just excited to be having a discussion instead of reading one. Thanks!

So true, brother. Tone is impossible online. Most of the heated conversations that have been on here wouldn't have ever happened in person, not even after a dozen beers. I mean, let's face it, if we didn't love fighting arts - would any of us be here?
How do you think WE would do in the UFC? I'm not talking about "well, if I got paid to train" or "if I was younger" - let's use the make believe scenario that we can put ourselves into a the time machine and go to the best time for us.....and make believe we all got paid big bucks to train so we didn't have to worry about it. How would we do? As wonderful as that would be, I don't think any of us would be stupid enough to attempt an MMA fight without cross training in the appropriate arts/style/gyms that would be needed to actually get our asses into the octagon and survive, never mind win. I sure hope nobody would be that naive.

I do American Karate. We fight hard, we grapple, we do a lot of things and I'll continue to do it until I drop dead. If I fought in the UFC, I can see the headlines now -
Politicians outraged over first death in UFC. American karate man loses life in first round due to stupidity. Friends say poor fella never had a clue.
That doesn't mean what I do isn't a great form of training or a viable in self defense. It's just not suited for UFC fighting without other forms of training to supplement it.

One other thing, in my opinion, when asked - which has been a lot over the years, I've always said that the best in-shape athletes I've ever been around (just me, not anyone else) were wrestlers and gymnasts. Plenty of others, obviously, but those are the two that always impressed me most for over all fitness, strength and endurance of training.

 

[drop bear]

Why aren't professionals using it in competition.
Simples , they probably think it is a load of ***** like you do and can't be bothered spending years to perfect it.

That by the way is a terrible argument. Given that professionals are looking at every method they can to get an edge.

 

[mook jong man]

That by the way is a terrible argument. Given that professionals are looking at every method they can to get an edge.

Not really.
Why would they even bother to try it when you have MMA fan boys doing everything possible to disparage and mock the system.

All you have to do is take a look on the internet , you have these young smart arses who make it their lifes work to put **** on every Wing Chun video they see , uninformed people see that and think its all true what these morons say.

So why would any up and coming MMA person go against that trend and end up being ridiculed by their peer group to learn Wing Chun.
Honestly with the hatchet job these ball bags do on Wing Chun over the internet , its a bloody wonder Wing Chun schools get any new students at all , let alone MMA guys.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps if the fan boys ever train any martial art let alone MMA they'd have a better understanding of what MMA is. The constant arguments about what martial art is better in MMA or what doesn't work are tired and pointless. It's MMA for crying out loud not karate v MT, or TKD v WC. It's what ever works for an individual fighter. More and more now people are coming into MMA without a base style to be taught how to fight in an MMA competition, they won't know or actually care what style a particular strike comes from, the don't know what the throw are called because everything is either called 'works' or 'doesn't work'.
As for Wing Chun, I know as least one fighter who has come from there, Sami Berik, he was very well respected, the only reason he didn't get 'on' in MMA is the same reason most here didn't at the time, because MMA was new and very small here. It was before things like TUF otherwise you would have seen him there I'm positive.
yes people do still come from traditional styles into MMA but more and more now they are coming into MMA as their first style, those who train are far too busy to care about rubbishing other styles, they rather actually look to see what strikes and take downs they can make work for them. However the fan boys are always going to be a problem, MMA isn't the only sport to have them but they influence only themselves not those who actually train or are involved in MMA.

 

[Steve]

Not really.
Why would they even bother to try it when you have MMA fan boys doing everything possible to disparage and mock the system.

All you have to do is take a look on the internet , you have these young smart arses who make it their lifes work to put **** on every Wing Chun video they see , uninformed people see that and think its all true what these morons say.

So why would any up and coming MMA person go against that trend and end up being ridiculed by their peer group to learn Wing Chun.
Honestly with the hatchet job these ball bags do on Wing Chun over the internet , its a bloody wonder Wing Chun schools get any new students at all , let alone MMA guys.

Because they're looking for any advantage. I know MMA'ists who are game for anything. Some do yoga. Some do Tai Chi.

What's sad here is that you think people are down on WC because of a hatchet job on the internet. But you have an even more distorted view of MMA based upon nothing more than a relative few interactions on the internet. That seems pretty close minded to me.

If you were interested in getting new students, a very good way to do it would be to start working out with some local MMA'ists. I'm not talking about learning MMA, because clearly that would be beneath you. But, just get to know them in real life. Do some sparring, some working out, exchange some actual words that aren't defensive. It will surely be enlightening to you. It could very well be enlightening to them. If you could get past your issues, you might be surprised at how nice they are.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps if the fan boys ever train any martial art let alone MMA they'd have a better understanding of what MMA is. The constant arguments about what martial art is better in MMA or what doesn't work are tired and pointless. It's MMA for crying out loud not karate v MT, or TKD v WC. It's what ever works for an individual fighter. More and more now people are coming into MMA without a base style to be taught how to fight in an MMA competition, they won't know or actually care what style a particular strike comes from, the don't know what the throw are called because everything is either called 'works' or 'doesn't work'.
As for Wing Chun, I know as least one fighter who has come from there, Sami Berik, he was very well respected, the only reason he didn't get 'on' in MMA is the same reason most here didn't at the time, because MMA was new and very small here. It was before things like TUF otherwise you would have seen him there I'm positive.
yes people do still come from traditional styles into MMA but more and more now they are coming into MMA as their first style, those who train are far too busy to care about rubbishing other styles, they rather actually look to see what strikes and take downs they can make work for them. However the fan boys are always going to be a problem, MMA isn't the only sport to have them but they influence only themselves not those who actually train or are involved in MMA.

Exactly. It's pretty clear that MMA has some overly enthusiastic fan boys. it's also clear that Wing Chun has some fan boys, too.

 

[Tez3]

Exactly. It's pretty clear that MMA has some overly enthusiastic fan boys. it's also clear that Wing Chun has some fan boys, too.

I tend to avoid all fanboys by not looking at martial arts videos online and not using any of the sites that encourage fanboys to air their 'knowledge'. You get enough idiots who come to fight nights shouting stupid things that show off their ignorance to a T.
I remember reading on a site I use ( Cagewarriors) a long thread just on the things shouted out by people in the crowd, some were 'clever funny' and others were just 'stupid funny'. A good read.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really.
Why would they even bother to try it when you have MMA fan boys doing everything possible to disparage and mock the system.

All you have to do is take a look on the internet , you have these young smart arses who make it their lifes work to put **** on every Wing Chun video they see , uninformed people see that and think its all true what these morons say.

So why would any up and coming MMA person go against that trend and end up being ridiculed by their peer group to learn Wing Chun.
Honestly with the hatchet job these ball bags do on Wing Chun over the internet , its a bloody wonder Wing Chun schools get any new students at all , let alone MMA guys.

The best way to get MMA fans to stop disparaging a system is by having it appear in MMA and perform well. For better or worse, MMA is the standard by which martial arts are judged.

The problem a lot of TMAs have is that the Gracies completely changed what is considered legit martial arts 20 years ago, and some instructors and stylists still refuse to acknowledge that that change ever took place.

Look at that Wing Chun thread over in the CMA section. There's people actively looking for some WC being used against a fully resisting opponent, or in a SD situation, and nothing can be found. That's a problem, because a lot of young people use Youtube to verify things that they don't know about.

 

[Tez3]

The best way to get MMA fans to stop disparaging a system is by having it appear in MMA and perform well. For better or worse, MMA is the standard by which martial arts are judged.

The problem a lot of TMAs have is that the Gracies completely changed what is considered legit martial arts 20 years ago, and some instructors and stylists still refuse to acknowledge that that change ever took place.

Look at that Wing Chun thread over in the CMA section. There's people actively looking for some WC being used against a fully resisting opponent, or in a SD situation, and nothing can be found. That's a problem, because a lot of young people use Youtube to verify things that they don't know about.

Who however is judging martial arts by MMA, only the fan boys again. The rest of the world doesn't care.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The best way to get MMA fans to stop disparaging a system is by having it appear in MMA and perform well. For better or worse, MMA is the standard by which martial arts are judged.

Speaking as a BJJ/Muay Thai practitioner who loves MMA and learns a lot from watching it: no. MMA is a standard which some people judge martial arts by. As much as I love and learn from MMA, I recognize that a) there are techniques/tactics which work in certain other combative settings but not in MMA and b) there are techniques/tactics which work in MMA but not so well in certain other combative settings. That's coming from an MMA fan. There are plenty of other people who are not MMA fans and don't judge anything by the MMA standard.