Who gets to change a kata or technique…

[isshinryuronin]

Honestly, my view is that if it takes such a high level to understand the kata well enough to make basic adjustments, that’s a problem in the training model. It makes progress difficult and leaves major failure points when one of those few inevitably pass away.

Yes, it was a big problem a century or two ago when there were just a few students studying under a single master. If that master passed before he taught his senior student the secret inner workings of his style, the style died as well.

Luckily, there is little held back nowadays in TMA and access to knowledge is widespread to the appropriate ranks. And the sheer number of practitioners insures this knowledge won't be lost.

But I'm curious, Gerry, as to what "basic adjustments" you are referring to. Adjustments to cope with you bad knees? Adjustments to make the form prettier for competition? To change the application from a takedown to an actual throw? I'd say the type of adjustments we're talking about is important. Some may be well within the range of kata flexibility allowed for individual comfort or natural movement, others may change the application completely or go against the style's core principles.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, it was a big problem a century or two ago when there were just a few students studying under a single master. If that master passed before he taught his senior student the secret inner workings of his style, the style died as well.

Luckily, there is little held back nowadays in TMA and access to knowledge is widespread to the appropriate ranks. And the sheer number of practitioners insures this knowledge won't be lost.

But I'm curious, Gerry, as to what "basic adjustments" you are referring to. Adjustments to cope with you bad knees? Adjustments to make the form prettier for competition? To change the application from a takedown to an actual throw? I'd say the type of adjustments we're talking about is important. Some may be well within the range of kata flexibility allowed for individual comfort or taste, others may change the application completely or go against the style's core principles.

The question to me in this context is changes to a form for personal, physical reasons, not actual global changes to the form.
A very diff meaning to me.

 

[Oily Dragon]

There is also the concept of ‘Shu Ha Ri’ and if anyone does reach the ‘Ri’ stage, perhaps they might modify kata (although out of humbleness, most 8th Dan Hanshi suggest they’re still at the ‘Shu’ stage).

I'm unsure of the reference/meaning here, but it sounds good 🤣

Shu Ha Ri in Japan, is Shou Po Li in China, and Li (離) is the 3rd Trigram.

Lots to unpack from there: the Fire Snake, the sun dragon god Zhulong, and the Immortal Lu Dongbin, played by Jackie Chan in The Forbidden Kingdom, for starters.

Happy Holidays from your friendly neighborhood kung fu nerd.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The question to me in this context is changes to a form for personal, physical reasons, not actual global changes to the form.
A very diff meaning to me.

No argument in this at all. Perfectly reasonable. But such personal changes to your form should not become the standard of the style to pass on to others.

Though, I believe Shimabuku taught 6'2" tall Marines a little different from 5' tall Okinawans, and these Marines returned to the US, passing on some of these adjustments so they became part of the style here in this country. I guess the moral here is to respect the form and keep it as pure as possible within the realm of common sense exceptions.

 

[Oily Dragon]

There are sooo many different versions of Monk Carries Wine.

White Tiger version, Tiger Crane version, Eight Immortal Fist.

Southern Shaolin Iron Wire version is my personal favorite, because if you ever get there, you'll know whoever made it up actually carried heavy barrels of the good stuff.

Not everyone is so lucky!

 

[seasoned]

No argument in this at all. Perfectly reasonable. But such personal changes to your form should not become the standard of the style to pass on to others.

Though, I believe Shimabuku taught 6'2" tall Marines a little different from 5' tall Okinawans, and these Marines returned to the US, passing on some of these adjustments so they became part of the style here in this country. I guess the moral here is to respect the form and keep it as pure as possible within the realm of common sense exceptions.

Some of those Marines dojo hopped and received little while others gained some loyalty and respect and returned to the states as representatives of the art. The one's that returned have made yearly trips back to Okinawa and kept the system pure....

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No argument in this at all. Perfectly reasonable. But such personal changes to your form should not become the standard of the style to pass on to others.

Though, I believe Shimabuku taught 6'2" tall Marines a little different from 5' tall Okinawans, and these Marines returned to the US, passing on some of these adjustments so they became part of the style here in this country. I guess the moral here is to respect the form and keep it as pure as possible within the realm of common sense exceptions.

He also made changes that he taught to different students at different times, even as radical as changing from the vertical punch (and later back again), so there are those differences to account for as well.

I am content to do kata as taught by my instructor, to the extent I am able. For example, I can no longer drop to one knee and get up again gracefully. Arthritis in my knees has done for me. But neither would I teach kata without it. I simply need someone more able-bodied to demonstrate.

 

[Flying Crane]

He also made changes that he taught to different students at different times, even as radical as changing from the vertical punch (and later back again), so there are those differences to account for as well.

I am content to do kata as taught by my instructor, to the extent I am able. For example, I can no longer drop to one knee and get up again gracefully. Arthritis in my knees has done for me. But neither would I teach kata without it. I simply need someone more able-bodied to demonstrate.

And to be clear, I am disinclined to make changes to my forms as well. I believe they are very valuable as they are. I am not advocating that changes be made by just anyone, Willy-Nilly. A hammer works just fine to pound a nail, I don’t need to reshape it to accomplish the same purpose.

But coming from a background in Chinese arts, I guess we kinda just see things differently. Change isn’t sacred, it can be done. That does not alter the identity of the system, but it does make for a variation in that particular downstream lineage. But Chinese arts often do not have a single central leadership. Different lineages splinter and may have its own central leadership for a while, until someone within that lineage decides to make his own change. Then people bicker and argue over who has the purest, or the realest, or the most legitimate version, but it’s all nonsense. In their own way, they are all legitimate, even though we all have reasons for believing that ours is the best. But such is life.

Tibetan white crane has two sister systems, Hop Gar and Lama Pai. All three came from an original method called Lions’ roar which, to my knowledge, no longer exists. These three systems have each gone in their own directions, have developed their own forms and curriculum, but continue to share a foundational methodology that drives it all. They were given different names because certain people in history decided to create a separation. That’s fine, no problem, that was their decision. In my opinion, they could all still be considered three branches of the same system (with sub-branches of their own) and could share a common name. This would be reasonable, in my opinion.

Choy Lay Fut has a couple of major lineages, one with many many many forms, too many for anyone to reasonably learn. The other has a very limited list of forms. Someone along the way made the decision to make that change. They are both still Choy Lay Fut.

These changes and splinters were done by people who may or may not have been genius martial masters. We tend to look back and believe that they were, but I suspect that is debatable. Maybe they grew into that role and became genius masters, but might not have been at the time. But they were bold enough to make a decision and change how they did their training, and they stuck to it and it worked and survived down the generations. I suspect many others failed.

My point is, people make these decisions, not gods.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

And to be clear, I am disinclined to make changes to my forms as well. I believe they are very valuable as they are. I am not advocating that changes be made by just anyone, Willy-Nilly.

....

My point is, people make these decisions, not gods.

Agreed. I don't believe I know enough about the kata I study to change them in a positive way. So I won't. It's not about the sacredness of the system or the holiness of the founder. It's that I know far less than he, and I am aware of it.

I know many who teach or practice offshoots of the style I train in, some invented by themselves. I wish them all well, and do not judge them or disrespect them. I have my own path to follow. I feel I have enough to keep me busy the remainder of my life without intentionally changing anything. When I fail to understand a principle taught by my kata, I presume it is my failure, rather than something wrong with the system that requires me to fix it.

 

[Flying Crane]

....

Agreed. I don't believe I know enough about the kata I study to change them in a positive way. So I won't. It's not about the sacredness of the system or the holiness of the founder. It's that I know far less than he, and I am aware of it.

I know many who teach or practice offshoots of the style I train in, some invented by themselves. I wish them all well, and do not judge them or disrespect them. I have my own path to follow. I feel I have enough to keep me busy the remainder of my life without intentionally changing anything. When I fail to understand a principle taught by my kata, I presume it is my failure, rather than something wrong with the system that requires me to fix it.

I can deeply appreciate your position on this. I will just say: don’t sell yourself short. I think you may have a stronger understanding than you give yourself credit for. There may simply be no need for you to make changes. That is probably true for most of us.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sometime you change a form just because there is something missing.

For example, In the original form,

1. Your opponent right punches at your head, you use right arm to block his punch, and left palm to strike at his waist.
2. You then turn around, block another punch, and punch back.

During 1, since your opponent may drop his leading punching arm to block your left palm strike, this will open up for your right punch at his face.

What's the value by adding into that extra right punch? By changing

- right arm block, left palm strike into
- right arm block, left palm strike, right punch,

you have just added in a very important MA principle - attack the opening that you have just created.

IMO, that's a plus for this form.

 

[Dirty Dog]

How do you feel about spelling? I mean, I guess we could just make up our own symbols to mean whatever we were trying to say. Are we constrained by the formality of spelling and grammar?

Have you read anything on the internet? Even so-called "journalists" can't spell, nor can they compose a grammatically correct sentence.

In the later forms, I don't even know if "changes" is the right word.

Fair enough. I'd say it's reasonable even if it's completely redone, just because the shared name ties back into the same shared roots.

With that said, I think you're in a fairly unique spot at your rank. I'm going to pretend for a minute that you're a lower belt than I am. You would be expected to do the form our way, for a few reasons:

• To help get ready for your next test
• So that all of the students are being taught the same way

The intended context for my comments was a guest or a random encounter at a competition. If I were there as a student, I should absolutely perform them the way your system does them. Taking the position that "your whole system is wrong and I'm right" would be ridiculous. Forms are a teaching tool, not Holy Writ.
I've learned and practice the originals as well as the minor variants, because I'm a giant nerd and find the differences interesting. I teach the variants because they are the standard as set by our Kwanjangnim. I'm happy to teach the originals to any student interested, just as I will teach the Chang Hon forms to interested students. But the standard is not mine to set.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Have you read anything on the internet? Even so-called "journalists" can't spell, nor can they compose a grammatically correct sentence.

I would not argue the degradation of the language is cause to celebrate, nor to capitulate. On the contrary, I consider these depredations to be casus belli. Given the opportunity, I would have them flogged, sir.

 

[_Simon_]

I suspect that dislike comes from a lack of understanding. If the instructor doesn’t understand a section, he cannot teach it properly, and it should probably be changed to something he can.

Ah yeah I see what you mean, that is a fair point. I guess I mean moreso changing the kata within a system simply from a whim, and out of not liking it and perhaps impatience. Could encourage the students to adopt a similar mentality with regards to how they approach training.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I would not argue the degradation of the language is cause to celebrate, nor to capitulate. On the contrary, I consider these depredations to be casus belli. Given the opportunity, I would have them flogged, sir.

I can only Like a post once, so I'll quote it for truth. My children make fun of me because I text without abbreviations. I even use capitals and punctuation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes, it was a big problem a century or two ago when there were just a few students studying under a single master. If that master passed before he taught his senior student the secret inner workings of his style, the style died as well.

Luckily, there is little held back nowadays in TMA and access to knowledge is widespread to the appropriate ranks. And the sheer number of practitioners insures this knowledge won't be lost.

But I'm curious, Gerry, as to what "basic adjustments" you are referring to. Adjustments to cope with you bad knees? Adjustments to make the form prettier for competition? To change the application from a takedown to an actual throw? I'd say the type of adjustments we're talking about is important. Some may be well within the range of kata flexibility allowed for individual comfort or natural movement, others may change the application completely or go against the style's core principles.

That will depend who we're talking about making adjustments. The individual practitioner should, of course, be making the kinds of adjustments you refer to here (probably with the help of their instructor). If an instructor sees a reason to change a kata, it would be beyond those examples. It might be to replace a little-used technique with another that is more used. Or to challenge balance at a specific point in the kata. Or to include tactics not commonly found in kata (like level changes that are more than deeper stances).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He also made changes that he taught to different students at different times, even as radical as changing from the vertical punch (and later back again), so there are those differences to account for as well.

I am content to do kata as taught by my instructor, to the extent I am able. For example, I can no longer drop to one knee and get up again gracefully. Arthritis in my knees has done for me. But neither would I teach kata without it. I simply need someone more able-bodied to demonstrate.

That's a problem I'm starting to run into, even in my own kata. I've had to re-start my program 3 times (4th one will be whenever Covid dies down enough for me to get back to teaching), so have no students who can do the demo for me. At some point, I'll lose the ability to demo the kneeling transitions (right now, it's just damned uncomfortable and less graceful).

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sometime you change a form just because there is something missing.

Or because you think there is something missing. Maybe you're wrong and simply do not understand the form correctly. Just suggesting that as an option.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Or because you think there is something missing. Maybe you're wrong and simply do not understand the form correctly. Just suggesting that as an option.

This is why one will need to have a good reason to change a form.

Lian Bu Quan was created as the 1st beginner level training form for The Central Guoshu Institute back in 1928. Since the whole form didn't even have one back reverse punch, GM Han Ching-Tang changed a double palms strike into a back reverse punch (at 0.43 in the following clip). So change had been done by my long fist teacher's teacher.

My long fist teacher's Lian Bu Chuan.

My long fist brother's Lian Bu Chuan.

 

[isshinryuronin]

, I can no longer drop to one knee and get up again gracefully.

I used to love doing Isshinryu's Kusanku kata with the flying crescent, jump kicks and four kneeling moves. But, like you and most other senior citizens, it's hard for me to get up gracefully after all the other physical demands this kata has.

Now, I envy other styles' version of Kusanku as they merely drop into a cat stance, rather than all the way down to a kneel. However, without the kneel, the bunkai drastically changes - The single leg takedowns disappear (shown as a kneeling elbow). If you look at the Bubishi illustrations, one of the big surprises for me was the stress on such moves in karate's early years.