Where Does Taekwondo End, and Gymnastics Begin?

msmitht

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Many members of this team are or have been on USAT poomsae team. Stop making yourself look stupid by making remarks about their demo and how it is or isn't tkd. They are very skilled and let's leave it at that. Or I could post this thread to their web site and see what they think...
 

Thousand Kicks

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Some of the responses in this thread remind me of something I read about Bruce Lee. When developing the style that would become known as Jeet Kun Do, Bruce Lee did not originally want to give his style a name. His reasoning was by naming a style you define what it is and what it isn't. This goes against his philosophy that a martial artist should continue to grow and gain knowledge and not get wrapped up in what is or is not Jeet Kun Do.

I see the same thing here. Some people have a concept in their mind of what TKD is and when they see a demo team doing something they don't consider TKD they dismiss it as gymnastics or a worthless investment of time. Why can't we just acknowledge the skill it takes to perform these kicks and leave it at that?

BTW, I wonder if a gymnast would call what we see in the video gymanstics?
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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Many members of this team are or have been on USAT poomsae team. Stop making yourself look stupid by making remarks about their demo and how it is or isn't tkd. They are very skilled and let's leave it at that. Or I could post this thread to their web site and see what they think...
You seem to be implying that the thread is judgemental or dismissive. I wasn't trying to be judgemental in starting the thread - I openly stated that they are talented. My personal opinion is once you get into handsprings and backflips, you are in the realm of gymnatics. If you disagree, that's fine - that's why I posted, to get the opinion of others. :) If you were to post on their web site, I would be fine with that. I would be more than happy to hear their thoughts.
 

chrispillertkd

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I'm not sure what this comment:

Many members of this team are or have been on USAT poomsae team.

has to do with this:

Stop making yourself look stupid by making remarks about their demo and how it is or isn't tkd. They are very skilled and let's leave it at that. Or I could post this thread to their web site and see what they think...

The point of this thread is to differentiate Taekwon-Do from activity which is more akin to gymnastics than martial arts. The members of the team in question may be very skillful and have been members of the USAT team you mention. But those facts don't make whatever they do Taekwon-Do, ipso facto. You may want to refrain from insinuating that other people are stupid for posting their opinion in a thread asking for people's opinions if you don't see that.

Pax,

Chris
 

msmitht

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sorry about that, it's just that some people have trouble differentiating between a martial arts demonstration and tkd. I got frustrated and snapped a little. If you went to Korea this is what the tame demo teams look like. Many do Taekwondo dance(barfing in own mouth) in addition to flip kicks and handsprings.
 

msmitht

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my fiance was an elite gymnast at a gymnastics coach in her youth. She watched the video and said that the gymnastics were very poorly executed. Looked good to me.
 

Tames D

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my fiance was an elite gymnast at a gymnastics coach in her youth. She watched the video and said that the gymnastics were very poorly executed. Looked good to me.

Sounds like you agree it's gymnastics being promoted. I thought it was great gymnastics. Not sure about the martial arts.
 
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Gwai Lo Dan

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my fiance was an elite gymnast ... and said that the gymnastics were very poorly executed...
To be expected in a way. A professional cyclist would say that triathletes are not very good cyclists...it all comes down to specialization.
 

TKDTony2179

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I know what you mean, but playing the devil's advocate, shouldn't a TKD demo DEMONSTRATE TKD? Imagine there were nunchuks, and the person threw them in the air, did some cartwheels and flips - that would be like baton twirling. So when does TKD end and gymnastics (or baton twirling) begin?

in this video.

I thought that was a minature bo staff! LOL!!! JK!!
 
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scottC

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I think that these "gymnastics" or acrobatic techniques are starting to become a part of tkd. Take a look at this video:
I think ktigers are among some of the best martial arts, especially for poomse. That being said they call these acrobatics moves show tae kwon. An art specifically developed for demonstrations. I don't think there is a line between taekwondo and gymnastics. Taekwondo, while ancient is still a somewhat evolving art. While it is true that you may never use a 720 or 540 in a fight, this fact definitely does not diminish the skill necessary to perform these kicks.
 
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I think that these "gymnastics" or acrobatic techniques are starting to become a part of tkd. Take a look at this video:
I think ktigers are among some of the best martial arts, especially for poomse. That being said they call these acrobatics moves show tae kwon. An art specifically developed for demonstrations. I don't think there is a line between taekwondo and gymnastics.

Exactly. They are DEMOs. They are not Taekwondo. While the line between TKD and gymnastics may be blurry in places, it definitely exists.

Taekwondo, while ancient is still a somewhat evolving art.

I won't argue that TKD is still evolving; I believe it is, and this is a good thing. But ancient? That's ridiculous. TKD isn't even a hundred years old.

While it is true that you may never use a 720 or 540 in a fight, this fact definitely does not diminish the skill necessary to perform these kicks.

Did you actually read the thread before you commented? I only ask because nobody in the thread has said anything of the sort. These stunts are athletic. They're fun to watch. They are a LOT of things.

But they are not Taekwondo.
 
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Tames D

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I think that these "gymnastics" or acrobatic techniques are starting to become a part of tkd. Take a look at this video:
I think ktigers are among some of the best martial arts, especially for poomse. That being said they call these acrobatics moves show tae kwon. An art specifically developed for demonstrations. I don't think there is a line between taekwondo and gymnastics. Taekwondo, while ancient is still a somewhat evolving art. While it is true that you may never use a 720 or 540 in a fight, this fact definitely does not diminish the skill necessary to perform these kicks.

I'm not questioning the skill level of these people, but I do question the fighting abilities. If this is taekwondo, then taekwondo is not a fighting art in my opinion. Very good athletics though, that will get you killed in a street fight.
 
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Rumy73

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Exactly. They are DEMOs. They are not Taekwondo. While the line between TKD and gymnastics may be blurry in places, it definitely exists.



I won't argue that TKD is still evolving; I believe it is, and this is a good thing. But ancient? That's ridiculous. TKD isn't even a hundred years old.



Did you actually read the thread before you commented? I only ask because nobody in the thread has said anything of the sort. These stunts are athletic. They're fun to watch. They are a LOT of things.

But they are not Taekwondo.

They are tkd. You can argue otherwise and use your admin powers to shutdown those who disagree with you... But it is tkd. Your argument would be similar to saying church A is Christian and church B is not. Guess what, there are many variations on a theme. Hyber athletic, youth oriented tkd is continues to grow commercially and in the common cultural understanding of it.
 

Bob Hubbard

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They are tkd. You can argue otherwise and use your admin powers to shutdown those who disagree with you... But it is tkd. Your argument would be similar to saying church A is Christian and church B is not. Guess what, there are many variations on a theme. Hyber athletic, youth oriented tkd is continues to grow commercially and in the common cultural understanding of it.

The last moderator who did this was fired from the staff back in 2004 or 2005. Regardless, see TOS Section 5.3.5 if you have a concern regarding members of our staff.
 

Dirty Dog

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They are tkd. You can argue otherwise and use your admin powers to shutdown those who disagree with you... But it is tkd. Your argument would be similar to saying church A is Christian and church B is not. Guess what, there are many variations on a theme. Hyber athletic, youth oriented tkd is continues to grow commercially and in the common cultural understanding of it.

I'm an admin now? When did I get promoted????? :rofl:


On one side of the street sits the United Methodist Church. On the other, Temple Beth Shalom.
Yes, I would say that one is Christian and the other is not, because in point of fact one is and the other...is not. They are both houses of worship. They are not both Christian.
Similarly, good TKD is athletic and requires a particularly skillset. The same is true of the useless but entertaining techniques being discussed. They are not both TKD.
 

TKDTony2179

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They want to change the name and the stereotype of taekwondo. They want a performance art. Well, they need to change the name all together. Like when the Chinese created Wushu a modern art. Yes I know it means martial art but most of the forms are practice as a performance art. Sanda is the only fighting part of it. They look nothing a like. So should be this. There is a traditional sparring, sport sparring, and a performance art. Name it something else and say it part of TKD but don't confuse the world.
 

Thousand Kicks

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They want to change the name and the stereotype of taekwondo. They want a performance art. Well, they need to change the name all together. Like when the Chinese created Wushu a modern art. Yes I know it means martial art but most of the forms are practice as a performance art. Sanda is the only fighting part of it. They look nothing a like. So should be this. There is a traditional sparring, sport sparring, and a performance art. Name it something else and say it part of TKD but don't confuse the world.

I'm not sure giving it another name would clear up the issue. If it has a different name then an explanation would have to be given about what it is and where it came from and how it uses apsects of TKD but is not strictly TKD.


I guess I don't understand the issue with calling performance style kicking TKD. What is it that the art or the practicioners stand to lose if we call this TKD? To those who have said this type of kicking is not practical and a good way to get killed in a street fight, I agree. But, if you started doing poomse in a street fight, you would probably get killed as well. As I said before, I think of TKD as many things put together; why can't this style of demo or performance just be one of the things that make up TKD?
 

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I'm not sure giving it another name would clear up the issue. If it has a different name then an explanation would have to be given about what it is and where it came from and how it uses apsects of TKD but is not strictly TKD.


I guess I don't understand the issue with calling performance style kicking TKD. What is it that the art or the practicioners stand to lose if we call this TKD? To those who have said this type of kicking is not practical and a good way to get killed in a street fight, I agree. But, if you started doing poomse in a street fight, you would probably get killed as well. As I said before, I think of TKD as many things put together; why can't this style of demo or performance just be one of the things that make up TKD?

There are already an awful lot of people who view TKD as a sport rather than a Martial Art, and as being ineffective for self defense. Do we really want to make it seem even less useful?
And for the record, nobody has suggested doing poomsae in a fight, but the techniques and concepts which are imparted through poomsae training are absolutely useful in a fight.
The same cannot be said of the 720 degree back flip triple lutz cameltoe kick.
 

TKDTony2179

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I'm not sure giving it another name would clear up the issue. If it has a different name then an explanation would have to be given about what it is and where it came from and how it uses apsects of TKD but is not strictly TKD.


I guess I don't understand the issue with calling performance style kicking TKD. What is it that the art or the practicioners stand to lose if we call this TKD? To those who have said this type of kicking is not practical and a good way to get killed in a street fight, I agree. But, if you started doing poomse in a street fight, you would probably get killed as well. As I said before, I think of TKD as many things put together; why can't this style of demo or performance just be one of the things that make up TKD?

True practical fighting and people that want to learn true martial arts skills to protect themselves. It will draw in the kids and families that want to do sport that will do nothing but self gratitude. Don't get me wrong. Self improvement is part of the martial arts but not flipping around. You don't see that in other arts besides Chinese arts and TKD. But chinese arts also focus on pure selfdefense as well. Also add hyungs do contribute to fighting but yes it is not fighting.
 
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