When we say Martial Arts

[kailat]

Okay I have a question, concern, topic, gripe, or whatever you really want to classify it as.

Why is it every origin, every continent, every country, province, island, village, race, family has a specific martial art system?

Okay i've been doing this martial art stuff for a long time, and i've seen alot and i've learnt alot. And don't get me wrong as soon as i write this i'll probably learn something later on that will make me want to retract this statement. But nonetheless here i go.

Allow me to start out w/ an example: Chinese has a Northern, Southern Gung Fu and within those two styles there are litteraly hundreds or thousands of different styles derived from them.

Japan, Okinawa, even Korea there are so many different blends of subsystems and styles from just these regions alone. Some hard some soft. Some use weapons some do not. Karate, w all the diff RYU's and Korean w/ all the different Kwan/Kwons

Not to mention we have Philippine, Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, (southeast asian area) Kali, Silat, Escrima, Arnis, Bersilat, etc..

When most people hear of martial art the average tend to think or lean more toward ASIAN decent or ASIA as the starting point.

However to make my point here, there are litterally thousands of other cross the globe i mean let's see if i can put some out here and im almost positive i'll miss several but my rude attempt here:

Western : BOXING
Native American Knife Fighting and Wrestling
American free style wrestling
FRENCH: Savate (kickboxing)-Fencing
Russia- Wrestling, Stand up boxing,
Isreal-Krav Maga
Viet Nam- Viet Va Dao
Sri Lanka - even has thier own system
I mean the list can indefenitly go on and probably never cease..

My point is.. when or what will we hear of next? Im sure every culture has thier own way to deal with attacks and defending and fighting etc.. thats a given human's have always fought.. but why don't we hear of CAVE MAN JUTSU? I mean give it time.. or we'll end up w/ the Moon Man Gung Fu. how to defend yourself in weightless ness or in orbit...its sureal to think about .. but i may of just given someone something to market if its not already started.. they'll call it martian fu..

but my point is.. how many different ways is there to kick, punch, throw, submit, lock a joint, take someone down? etc...

I mean i've seen several techniques from different system from different cultures and they are all the same...

is it possible that over time its all just the same stuff stolen and revamped for marketing purposes? I mean why lead the public into such an ongoing slaughter.. i mean were not selling vaccumm cleaners here.. it's not like comparing KIRBY's to HOOVER's ya know?

After all people are giving schools, and instructors their hard earned money hoping they learn how to defend themselves...NOT ALL, because i still know several teachers that are dedicated to teaching and making sure their students can fight.. however i know of several that really don't care either..(ie. McDojo's)...

I just cant take finding out or hearing the next great hidden culture pop up on the scene in the future and say SUCH AND SUCH has this secret fighting style guaranteed to clean up and tear apart any human on the face of the earth... ya know what i mean? it is just redundant and is starting to tick me off.. Market your system fine... but on the other hand dont make it out to be something its not.. is all Im saying...A headlock is a Headlock no matter what culture or system it comes from...a front kick is a front kick be it from karate or taekwondo or jujutsu etc...

anyone else with me?

 

[Grenadier]

You're pretty much correct, that there are only so many ways that we can punch, kick, throw, lock, takedown, etc. Given the sheer number of systems out there, I'm sure that just about every method has been covered by now.

Also, given the sheer number of hybrid styles out there, that combine two similar, or even dissimilar, systems, that such combinations probably already exist.

Where a new style may very well differ, though, is in the approaches it takes toward learning, etc. It's not all about the combative aspect, after all.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

A lot of it is people in different localities discovered the same principles that someone else had elsewhere. That and disagreements between people that led to splits in a style/founding a new style.

Jeff

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i find it fascinating and wonderful that the variety is out there.

yes, it all comes down to basics and there are only so many basics.

but how many notes are there, really? how many rythms? and yet there's an infinite number of songs.....

you can learn a lot about your art by seeing exactly how another style approaches the same truths differently. just don't get caught up in the damnfool contest of which art is better, or how this year's fad style is the only way to win the fight.

 

[Xue Sheng]

If Leibniz and Newton can discover Calculus simultaneously without either one knowing about it, discovering similar martial arts approaches really is not all that amazing.

And here is a list of world wide MA to add to the confusion. And I am sure it is not complete either
http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-martial-arts

 

[kailat]

Very Fine points gentlemen in deed.. and i greatly appreciate your opinions.. after all it was just my ignorance at best that this was eating at.. I was just curious if anyone else was bothered by such?

It really does not concern me, yet on the other hand deeply everytime i pick up a martial arts book, or magazine or something and hear about somoene claiming this or that about a specific system it just somewhat grabs me under the skin and makes me cringe a bit.. i feel alot better though now that i got it off my chest and out in the open a bit.. sometimes that justh helps ya know? LOL...but i do likethe comparison to the NOTES and MUSIC and the Calculous metaphors..very well explained..that just alone says alot right there... i guess in essence when you look the "brighter side of it all" because hind sight is 20/20. That we all do learn from various angles and differences and what one may particular style may not get through another may iguess... I've met very good martial artist and some very unique instructors one who comes to mind is Professor Joe Lansdale he created his own unique system called "SHEN CHUAN" some of u may know of it, some may not.. now i swear his stuff is deffinetly all to its own or as to what i've seen anyhow..very awesome.. yet very hybrinated from hapkido, aikido, arnis, silat, JKD etc.. but he has one or two little subtle things he does that just makes it his very own...i see it, but i can't put my finger on how he does it yet...LOL...of all his top students they are all great and excellent fighters and martial artist.. however they all do that things differently that is unique to themselves..so yes in a nutshell its all the same but i guess its also very different...

please though feel free to continue this post...i'd like to hear what others have to say..

 

[exile]

Kailat---I think there are two separate parts to your post. The first one is about the existence of the bewildering number of different `named' fighting systems in the world---developing real expertise on the Chinese MA world alone would probably take most of a lifetime. The second is the ethics-of-marketing aspect. I think Grenadier and Jeff were exactly right about the first question---you get different systems from different ways to teach the same (or similar) material, and from organizational splits, which then lead the different sides to adopt particular (and often quite small) differences kind of as `icons' of the friction or antagonism between the two sides (e.g., between WTF and ITF, you have differences in chambering movements, in the path of `block' delivery, in the way stances are tied to delivery of techniques (e.g., the whole `sine wave' thing) and in the poomae/hyungs/tul etc used by each side; at a larger scale, the `Koreanization' movement in TKD led to the abandonment of the Pyung-Ahn hyungs by both WTF and ITF and the increasingly strong dismissals of Shotkan's influence in TKD by Gen. Choi over several decades. Probably in China, family feuds and conflicts wound up spliting apart systems that were once unified within a single unified extended family. Form has function---language split into dialects probably reflects subconscious but deliberate choices among human groups about who we're with and for, as vs. who we're against, and MA can be used the same way.

But the marketing question... that's a bit different, I suspect. The people who market their styles the way you're talking about know full well that many people who do MA are very insecure about how street-effective what they know is, should it ever come to that. There's a sizable consumer base out there of people who are anxious to buy reassurance that they really do know how to defend themselves... and there are plenty of people out there cynical enough to take advantage of that insecurity.

 

[Shotgun Buddha]

When it comes down to it, yes, there are only so many ways of effectively fighting, only so many techniques which we really can use.
However its not the techniques which make the "style" as it were.
Its a combination of
1. Objective
2. Training Methods

The objective is important, because it decides what training methods the "style" will use. If the objective is focused on combat for example, you will usually see alot of emphasis on heavy sparring, physical conditioing etc
If they objective is a philisophical aim, like in in Aikido, the methods will be tailored to best represent that aim.
If the objective is shamless profiteering, the training methods will focus on gimmicks,and flashiness.
Im sure you get the idea.

The training methods are the primary tool in shaping a style. For example, train locks and throws using Aikido randori rules, and you end up having something resembling Aikido, becaus ethats the logical way to progress under those conditions.
Use Judo rules instead though, and it will evolve into resembling Judo.
So over time, as different arts focused on different objectives, and used different training methods to achieve those objectives, they began to develop a distinct character, separate from their base techniques.
Its interesting watching how styles evolution actually occurs.

 

[Rook]

Its not just the movements, it how they are used and how they are combined and how much emphasis is placed on different parts. People can divide boxers into all sorts of different types based on the way they throw the same couple punches and some trainers can tell which major gym you are from just by watching you go at a heavy bag.

To give another example, you would be hard pressed to find any technique in BJJ, Catch wrestling or SAMBO that isn't in the other two. However, its easy for some people to watch a match and tell who trained which just based on which techniques and positions they favor.

 

[terryl965]

I feel like you sometimes there are only so many ways one can throw a kick and a punch. Now with that being said MA has become more commercial and it needs to keep bringing something to the tableI.E. different style or it has or will become complaent in it developement. Society says everything changes so people are always looking for change. So here come our Mc Dojo's of the world and let the buyer be ware

 

[Brown Belt]

The answer lies in how can a martial art be defined? First, what is art or what is an art? Then, if you combine martial which means fighting, it's an art of fighting. But again how can art be defined in a fighting way? In other words, can I momentarily stand still in a plain center-facing walking stance and do blocks, or is that considered not artistic because of its plainness?

 

[MBuzzy]

I agree with you in that both the staggering number of styles and marketing techniques get frustrating. This is mainly due to the evolution of the arts though. When most of these arts originated, the creators were geographically separated and more importantly had no communication with the rest of the world. In fact, for the majority of the history of the world, a vast number of the creators did not even realize the existance of other cultures, let alone MA styles. I believe that the number of styles out there and even the marketing is an age-old issue that is only now coming to light due to the "shrinking of the world." With communications systems as we have and the internet, we are now aware of almost ALL of the styles out there, whereas even 20 years ago, most people didn't have a concept of just how many were out there.

My thought is that mediums such at this - message boards, chat rooms, the internet, international travel - are going to bring about more merging of styles. Many people are now learning different styles and developing new styles based on the combination of others. Eventually, the logical conclusion is that the basic styles will start to converge into larger, more robust styles which incorporate many of the basics from a number of styles. The alternative is that we just keep piling more styles on top of each other and eventually schools and entire systems will begin to die, just by flooding of the "market." There will be too many to go around and not enough "customers."

In terms of marketing, if you think about it...the same thing has been going on for thousands of years when it comes to religions (in fact, some martial arts were even created because of this). Everyone believes that their's is the best and tries to convert others to their style of religion - many times forcefully...which is where some MAs come in.

 

[kailat]

I can't argue with that last post.. thats most defenitly probably the answer over all...wow...good call...

 

[bushidomartialarts]

that's an excellent point. it's kind of like languages that way.

most languages can be traced to only a few starting points inthe world. people spread from that point and (recently) began communicating regularly. the result is the words in a language have three major phases:

phase one is words that we've needed from the very beginning: mother, father, stuff like that. since we needed a word for those things in the cradle of language and civilization, these words are similar in most languages in a family. this can be likened to basics and stances.

phase two is words that were discovered as people began to spread: bear, spear, boat. groups needed that word when they were no longer in communication with other groups, so the words are often quite different. this is like the bewildering array of individual knife disarms you can find.

phase three is words for inventions or concepts developed since global communication became common. somebody invents a television, and when somebody who speaks a different language asks what that gizmo is, he's told 'television'.

i think we're entering into that third phase now. both languages and martial arts may see a fourth phase where the languages blend more and more (we're already seeing that somewhat here and there).

boy, that was a lot of words to say not much....

 

[Robert Lee]

Every person remains different By that the many M/a arts were set down certion people And students studied from Each of those persons. Be it a named art or not. Slight change in what was added or change gave names To other arts. Now really each person develops there own way and use a certion amount of what they learned that worked for them. Byond this is Say the culture aspect the mental training the life training Because arts are more then just fighting. We call boxing boxing and there is many ways to boxing. Perhaps Martial arts can be called just that Martial arts. That would make it more an easyer aspect rather then the many art names. Say you learn TKD it becomes yours only in how you perform with it. Sure it has a standard teaching method. But that is to learn its structure by. From there it only belongs to the each and every person that trained it. Which it all will be slightly different.