When training women should they recieve special treatment ?

[suicide]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

 

[grydth]

Some arts - notably Aikido and Tai Chi - make exceptions for students, and not specifically women. It may be "no fall" classes for anyone with a bad back; it may be accepting a different step in a form because of a knee injury.

Other arts are, 'by the book'....... here's how it is done, if you cannot do it that way, there's the door. A woman I work with developed physical problems and was politely but firmly expelled even though she was 4th Dan.

You must consider whether you can do justice to yourself, your art and your prospective students. If you do not feel you can meet these 3 tests, you should consider not accepting them as students and refer them elsewhere.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Check with them what they expect from training (contact, falling, sparring, ...) to make sure that everybody is singing from the same hymn sheet, so to speak.

Also, put something on paper, describing the fact that you are teaching them MA, and what that entails. Then add a clause that specifies that they take the risk, and will not sue in case of injury or other bad things happening. Then have them sign it.

Check if they are insured. If they aren't, either try to arrange for one, or have them sign a waiver to take the risk off your shoulders.

Also (I have some experience with women's self defense classes) if they don't know you yet, you want to build up some level of trust. With this I mean that they should start to trust you to do them no harm. Once that is established, then you can intensify things to the level that they can take.

 

[MJS]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

What are they looking to get out of the training? In other words, is this a short or long term thing? Either way, IMO, I think that the training should be the same as what you would teach to others? Why? Because chances are, if they're attacked, it'll be by a male, not another woman. Get them into the proper mindset, have them not only work with each other, but with other male students, and get them used to contact.

Of course, if someone has some limitations, ie: injuries, etc, then make the exception for that.

 

[suicide]

thanks for the feedback ...

 

[Jenna]

I do not get what "special treatment" you were imagining you would need to provide these poor, poor women? Certainly we reserve basic teaching technique and treatment for beginners of EITHER sex, though why would you differentiate for women? If they are interested in your art or your course then you assume they are aware that you are not demonstrating flower arranging or dress alteration, excuse my facetiousness Treat the women as "participants" and remove the gender-worry from your teaching and make the whole exercise a lot less stressful and awkward for every including yourself
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[Omar B]

I'm not a believer in special treatment for anyone unless they are physically disabled. women can do everything men can right, train right along side us. After all, modifying the training changes the nature of the result of said training.

 

[Twin Fist]

I make NO changes to my training based on the gender of the student.

never have
never will

 

[searcher]

I am with Jenna in wondering what type of special treatment you are referring to?

I train women and girls in my classes and they don't get special treatment nor do they want special treatement. To suggest that they need special treatement is, IMO, a slap in their face. Unless they have some ailment, they should be treated just like any other student.

 

[Aniela13]

My instructors do a very intense workout session at the beginning of every class...the (gender unrelated) "special treatment" there is just that, if you're physically unable to keep up, you modify the workout to something you can do. Beyond that, there are a few kicks that have caused me hip pain; one of my instructors has been working with me to improve them, but has said that (provided I'm doing it correctly) if the pain continues then the technique will be altered.

But if these women are healthy, the only "treatment" I'd give them is, as was stated above, to build a level of trust with them. Knowing that my instructors respect me and watch out for me enables me to learn as much from them as they are able to teach me.

~Ani

 

[Rich Parsons]

What are they looking to get out of the training? In other words, is this a short or long term thing? Either way, IMO, I think that the training should be the same as what you would teach to others? Why? Because chances are, if they're attacked, it'll be by a male, not another woman. Get them into the proper mindset, have them not only work with each other, but with other male students, and get them used to contact.

Of course, if someone has some limitations, ie: injuries, etc, then make the exception for that.

I do not get what "special treatment" you were imagining you would need to provide these poor, poor women? Certainly we reserve basic teaching technique and treatment for beginners of EITHER sex, though why would you differentiate for women? If they are interested in your art or your course then you assume they are aware that you are not demonstrating flower arranging or dress alteration, excuse my facetiousness Treat the women as "participants" and remove the gender-worry from your teaching and make the whole exercise a lot less stressful and awkward for every including yourself
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Mike and Jenna do make very valid points.

Although, I would like to express the other side of the discussion for consideration.

On average males see more conflict than females and are less likely to walk away the first time they get a bruise. So special consideration this may need to be thought about. A guy who walks in with a bruise on his arm it thought to have played hard in sports. A woman who walks in with a bruise is thought to be attacked or assaulted. Are the perceptions right or wrong? I am not going to make that call. I just bring it out so that people realize that it is there, and it maybe a consideration for the student.

Also, as women are more likely to be abused than men, from the reported statistics, they may have a psychological injury that may need to be considered. Bring up the trust of the class and the instructor and then also allow them slowly get over these issues.


Now, can a male have these same problems? Yes.

I speak on averages and broad statistics, so one can be aware and adjust accordingly.


Now of course, these women could be like one woman that approached me. She wanted to have a class to protect herself. There were a case of someone picking women up at local shopping malls and taking them to another city (* hour north *) and raping and beating them and then letting them go.

She did not want a firearm for protection.

She did not want learn how to use a knife to protect herself.

She wanted to take a class get a certificate and let the certificate protect her.

Needless to say, there was nothing I could do to help her.


Good Luck

 

[tellner]

You are probably borrowing trouble here. Unless she already has plenty of martial arts experience she'll accept the dojo environment you present as normal. If you assume that she will be different and be trouble because she's a woman - what you're pretty obviously expecting - that's what will happen. If you just follow your normal practice and take up issues as they arise it should be fine.

 

[astrobiologist]

A student from another school was training with me one day. He mentioned how he never gets to be too physical since the class he usually attends has a lot of women and he was afraid he may hurt them. I told him, though, that taking it easy on women because our culture has told you "a man can't hit a woman" and "women must be treated with special attention" is not fair to the women themselves. They are in a martial arts class for a reason. They want to learn self defense as well.

We all choose our training knowing full well that injury and being uncomfortable are part of it. We as instructors are bound to ensure a certain level of safety for our students, but we also want to know that our students are safe and are getting a good martial arts education.


There are a few things to keep in mind:

-due to the large number of nerve endings in female breasts, we must be careful not to strike the breasts too hard. A strike may happen once in a while when sparring, but it is avoided. The same thing goes for groin strikes for men and women. Many of us men enjoy strengthening this area, but for women it can be difficult to do so. At the more advanced ranks, if a woman chooses to allow for harder strikes to the chest then that will be her choice and not a requirement.

-also, again due to the breasts, with weapons training, it is easier and usually more comfortable for women to bring a staff or other weapon back to the lower rib cage (below the serratus anterior) while training, whereas many of us men will prefer to bring the weapon back directly to the serratus anterior (the "boxer" muscles, beside of the pectoralis). When done slowly this is not a problem, but if done quickly, especially with a heavy staff, this consideration can be made.

-When I teach grappling classes, I prefer to have women grappling with other women. It is not necessary for the more advanced ranks, however it is usually more comfortable for the lower ranking female students.

-With the last point, when training in drills, techniques, or bunkai, I prefer to have women working with the more mature men if possible. No offense to young guys, but it can become an unnecessary awkward moment to have a 16 or 17 yr old guy working with a fully developed woman.


Other than these things, there really is no need to give women special treatment. Most of the women I have worked with preferred to train hard.

 

[seasoned]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

If their just looking for some self defense moves, then I definitely would teach them differently. But whether male or female, makes no difference. I would leave kata out of it, and stick to easy to learn techniques. If it's a structured class their looking for then they would be taught the same as everyone else, from the bottom up.

 

[Lisa]

a female social worker friend of mine wants me to train her and 2 of her co workers ( females also ) , i told her id get back to her that i was gonna get my game plan together on how i would execute sessions with them.

%-}

So, Suicide, I gotta tell ya that reading the title of this thread kinda got my hackles up, I bet it did the other women on the board as well. And I am guessing you have no women in your classes and never have and can I go further and say you have never trained with a woman either? Because if you did you would have a better handle on what to do. So I gotta ask...why is that? What exactly is it you teach and have learned that has never had a woman cross your path?

If I am right in my assumptions then perhaps it would be better to kindly turn your social worker friend down or offer her an alternative. Although I am a firm believer in not treating women any differently, if you have never trained with one or taught one before then perhaps your first trial should not be with a friend and coworker.

 

[shihansmurf]

If you respect these people enough to pass on your knowledge then there is no reason to disrespect them by watering it down to grant them "special treatment". A student is a student. Provide the best training to each one that you are able, engage them fairly, and any issues will work themselves out.


Mark

 

[tellner]

Just to second what Lisa said...

If you've gotten to instructor rank without a female teacher, a female student or female classmates you've been inhabiting a very strange corner of the martial arts world indeed. If you're serious about teaching you might profit from some serious exposure to an environment which has significant numbers of female martial arts students. There are plenty of Kenpo schools in your part of the world where that is the case.

The tone of your article is bound to set women's teeth on edge. As you can see, it already has. My previous advice stands: You seem to be asking "How are these strange creatures going to be problems?" Treat them like any other student - fairly, without favoritism or prejudice - and you won't have any real problems. Treat them otherwise, and it's going to be a bad time all around.

Yes, women have boobs. Past childhood they've had them for a while and are used to the idea. They kind of carry them around. Sports bras for most classes and chest protectors for sparring mostly take care of the sensitivity and uncomfortable bouncing issues. If you need more advice ask a female black belt in your style.

Close contact between men and women in training? It's something everyone needs to get used to. It's more of a problem for the young of both sexes than the older ones. When I've taught women's self defense classes I always thanked the gods for older women, especially the grandmothers. The younger women looked up to them. And they were refreshingly nonchalant and lacking in useless shyness. A direct quote as one grabbed a 20 year old wrestler/football player for groundwork drills: "Don't worry, son. I raised four boys. You don't have anything I haven't diapered a thousand times."

In any case, if your friends are interested in self protection they need to get used to physical contact with men. And it does the men good to treat the women in the class as just more training partners. Some women aren't quite at that point. For them I recommend women's self defense classes. Once they've gotten to a certain point of physical confidence they tend not to have problems with a mixed class.


Here are three inviolable rules if you're going to enter the later twentieth let alone twenty first century:

1. If a guy is taking the opportunity to cop a feel, or if he's pelvis grinding during grappling or making rude comments of a sexual nature your absolute responsibility as an instructor is to toss him so hard he bounces. No second chances.
2. If one of your senior students uses his position to pressure female students for dates or sex throw him so hard he bounces twice. No exceptions no matter how long you've known him or how good he is.
3. If you use your position to do that sort of thing you are unfit to teach and deserve to be drummed out of your organization and get the ***-whipping of your life - the sort involving broken bones and permanent disability.

 

[astrobiologist]

Just to second what Lisa said...

If you've gotten to instructor rank without a female teacher, a female student or female classmates you've been inhabiting a very strange corner of the martial arts world indeed. If you're serious about teaching you might profit from some serious exposure to an environment which has significant numbers of female martial arts students. There are plenty of Kenpo schools in your part of the world where that is the case.

The tone of your article is bound to set women's teeth on edge. As you can see, it already has. My previous advice stands: You seem to be asking "How are these strange creatures going to be problems?" Treat them like any other student - fairly, without favoritism or prejudice - and you won't have any real problems. Treat them otherwise, and it's going to be a bad time all around.

Yes, women have boobs. Past childhood they've had them for a while and are used to the idea. They kind of carry them around. Sports bras for most classes and chest protectors for sparring mostly take care of the sensitivity and uncomfortable bouncing issues. If you need more advice ask a female black belt in your style.

Close contact between men and women in training? It's something everyone needs to get used to. It's more of a problem for the young of both sexes than the older ones. When I've taught women's self defense classes I always thanked the gods for older women, especially the grandmothers. The younger women looked up to them. And they were refreshingly nonchalant and lacking in useless shyness. A direct quote as one grabbed a 20 year old wrestler/football player for groundwork drills: "Don't worry, son. I raised four boys. You don't have anything I haven't diapered a thousand times."

In any case, if your friends are interested in self protection they need to get used to physical contact with men. And it does the men good to treat the women in the class as just more training partners. Some women aren't quite at that point. For them I recommend women's self defense classes. Once they've gotten to a certain point of physical confidence they tend not to have problems with a mixed class.



Here are three inviolable rules if you're going to enter the later twentieth let alone twenty first century:

1. If a guy is taking the opportunity to cop a feel, or if he's pelvis grinding during grappling or making rude comments of a sexual nature your absolute responsibility as an instructor is to toss him so hard he bounces. No second chances.
2. If one of your senior students uses his position to pressure female students for dates or sex throw him so hard he bounces twice. No exceptions no matter how long you've known him or how good he is.
3. If you use your position to do that sort of thing you are unfit to teach and deserve to be drummed out of your organization and get the ***-whipping of your life - the sort involving broken bones and permanent disability.

If you were responding to my earlier post, I meant no disrespect to women in the martial arts. Indeed my favorite martial artist is a woman and she's laying behind me while I type this.

I was simply sharing some considerations I have come across while training with and teaching women in response to the original post. Thank you for your response.

 

[crushing]

It's interesting how this thread went from "treat 'em the same" to "treat 'em the same, except watch for" to "I recommend women's self defense classes".

It doesn't appear to have been so cut and dry after an initial negative reaction to the OP.

Special: unique or specific to a person or thing or category
Treatment: the management of someone or something

There have been several excellent responses with suggestions regarding special treatment, which once again shows what a great community we have here at MT.

 

[tellner]

ab, I wasn't bagging on you at all and apologize if that seemed to be the case. The remarks were general and not directed at your post.