When the pursuit of "not being a sport" goes wrong...

[JowGaWolf]

I just thought it was very pompous of you to berate Jason Delucia like that.

In what way did I berate him.
1. There is no fighting system called the Five Animal Kung Fu
2. Wikipedia states that he "practiced the Five Animal Styles of Kung Fu" once again this isn't a fighting system, it's a description or classification of a technique, based on how the technique moves. This means that different fighting systems can have these same characteristics even if it's not kung fu.
3. The only actual fighting systems that he is said to have taken is, Taekwondo, Aikido, Gracie Jiu Jitsu. None of those 3 fighting systems that I named are Kung Fu fighting systems.
4. When you watch his matches you can see more Taikwondo and Gracie Jiu Jitsu techniques than anything else.
5. Being that it doesn't seem that he actually took a kung fu fighting system, I would doubt that he could do a form.
6. Strait from his own website "On the DVD, Jason answers these questions and more:
...Being a traditional Gung Fu Stylist what is your opinion on the modern teachings of Bruce Lee and Jeet Kune Do ? Now tell me what is the Traditional Kung Fu system that he studied. He names the other systems but doesn't name the which Kung Fu system he studied? This is the case with every reference of Kung Fu and Delucia no matter where you search.

I'm not the only one who does a Chinese Martial arts that has also pick up on these things.
I found it entertaining that another Jow Ga student pointed out some of these same things in 2004
"http://www.karateforums.com/jason-delucia-s-five-animals-vt11976.html

There are other posts from other martial artist asking the same question. "what kung fu fighting system did Jason Delucia study?"
Besides there is no proof or evidence, or assumption that Jason ever did forms.

 

[FriedRice]

Art Jimmerson got 17,000 guaranteed and a thousand for competing in the first round. (nice work if you can get it.)
The afternoon of the fight he told the promoter, Art Davie, that he needed boxing shoes and gloves, as he had forgotten to bring his. (bizarre) So they had to rush out and get him some boxing gloves. They couldn't find boxing shoes so they got him sneakers.

All I could think when I saw that match was "that poor man."

Jason DeLucia rocks.

Damn, you know so much info about these early UFC's, thanks btw. $17,000 for Jimmerson, man...that's was a hell of a lot of money back then for a decent (still not good), Boxer....about $28,000 today. Like Holy Holm only got paid around $20,000-25,000 a fight by the UFC before the Title fight vs. Rousey.

I just checked on Wiki that Jimmerson's record is 51-33 with 33-18 of these 51 fights as a Pro (12 KO's). Not bad, but not great. He lost 5 title fights and won 1. People often say that the early UFC was rigged to help promote BJJ, but I don't see it, especially after finding out now that a "decent" Boxer was paid this much to just compete. It was rigged to make money and perhaps start a revolution in MA.

I remembered that each fighter got a $1,000 guaranteed win/lose per fight and the grand prize was around $60,000? Fouls cost $1,000 per incident, which were: biting, eye gouging and fish-hooking but didn't stop nor stall the fight...it keeps going. But they can still win the $60k and still come out way, way ahead by biting, eye gouging, etc. even after the fines. Which was why Gordeau bit Gracie and DeLucia eye gouged Gracie...but the Ref didn't see or didn't call it on purpose, due to the nature of the early UFC's.

Eye Gouging was a foul, but eye striking, eye poking.....was completely legal. So I guess eye gouging is when you dig your fingers in and try to scoop out a dude's eyeball. Strikes to the nuts, throat, neck, spine, pressure points, etc...no problemo. UFC 1-4, answered most to all questions about how well "Too Deadly for Sport, Practitioners" would do in a real fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

People often say that the early UFC was rigged to help promote BJJ,

Those people don't know what they are talking about. The early UFC was brutal and I can't see anyone taking damage like that just to throw a fight for some money. Whatever BJJ has now they earned it.

UFC 1-4, answered most to all questions about how well "Too Deadly for Sport, Practitioners" would do in a real fight.

It definitely answered that question because they realized just how brutal fighting is, I'm glad they put better rules because there's no way fighters would be able to keep up beatings like that and still be able to fight over the years.

 

[FriedRice]

In what way did I berate him.
1. There is no fighting system called the Five Animal Kung Fu

He probably just means that he's a master or real good at a certain 5 animal styles. I'm not greatly interested nor claim to know a lot about KF. Just a quick search, yields:
The 5 Kung Fu Animal Styles of the Chinese Martial Arts – - Black Belt
Shaolin 5 Animal Kung Fu Reasoning & Logic

2. Wikipedia states that he "practiced the Five Animal Styles of Kung Fu" once again this isn't a fighting system, it's a description or classification of a technique, based on how the technique moves. This means that different fighting systems can have these same characteristics even if it's not kung fu.

3. The only actual fighting systems that he is said to have taken is, Taekwondo, Aikido, Gracie Jiu Jitsu. None of those 3 fighting systems that I named are Kung Fu fighting systems.

"After all, DeLucia was no stranger to dojos. He'd studied
Chinese Kung Fu, Chuan Fa, Kenpo, Tae Kwon Do and Judo." (from an interview)

(bad video, but the UFC takes down many copyrighted videos off of youtube)

But you can see him wearing pants that are usually found on KF guys and a RED SASH. He even made the announcer introduce him as a "Kung-Fu 5 Animal Style" fighter or whatever. If TKD was his main system, then he'd say so.

Here's another Gracie vs. a Kung-Fu guy.....notice that there's nothing here that resemble KF other than him wearing KF type training clothes and claiming that he's KF.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I will bow to your superior knowledge on that one, as I have no knowledge of Bujinkan.

Well (almost) every martial arts school does that too, but very few actually teach self defence. but as we know they just put that on the website to get more people through the door.

But I don't see any attempt in the video or the description to represent it as SD, so for me it needs to be critiqued for a MA stand point rather than a SD one.

Now, if it had SD in the title, that would be different ;-)

We just recently had a new family (mother, father, and son) try a kung fu class. The mother wants her son to take part in it and she made the statement that he learned more in one day of our classes than in karate class that he used to take. He was one belt away from a black belt but didn't have the coordination of someone at that level. The son make the comment that Jow Ga is difficult and that Karate was easier and that he wanted to go back to do karate. Keep in mind this was day 1 beginners introduction, which includes shifting stances from bow to horse and basic Jow Ga punches. The father did a good job for his first day, but we were all shocked that the son was having such a difficult time. I was hoping his karate skills would help him, but unfortunately it quickly become clear that he learned from one of those schools that only care about getting students and filling their pockets.

Before I get bashed about Karate. I'm only referring to the martial arts schools that rip people off and care more about the money than about their student's learning. This particular situation was teen that came from a karate background.

 

[FriedRice]

It definitely answered that question because they realized just how brutal fighting is, I'm glad they put better rules because there's no way fighters would be able to keep up beatings like that and still be able to fight over the years.

True. IMO, it would evolve towards Fighters trying to find ways to solve problems....like it is now, and continuing to evolve.....with which today, is bringing back more TMA techniques ....as mainstream Muay Thai has been saturated.

But the eye strike had to be removed, no matter what....otherwise, it will evolve into a contest of eye striking, mostly and I doubt they'd sell many tickets to that. And dudes will be missing eyeballs, sooner or later, no matter how awesome they are. Oh, and strikes to the back of the neck & spine.....good Lord those were brutal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He probably just means that he's a master or real good at a certain 5 animal styles.

The animal styles in kung fu aren't all that special. It's more of a description of how one moves or how the hand is held. For example, money style is very mobile, it doesn't mean that the fighter is acting like a monkey. It just means that the fighter is mobile like one. In this style the fighter will fight on both horizontally and vertically. So the attack combination can literally be a combo punch to the face, mid section, and sweeping the feet. Then on the way back up the person can perform an attack while jumping.
Tiger styles are strong arm techniques usually involving attacks using the palm trying to grab soft areas like the face and gripping the face and pulling, each style has a particular animal related to the attack or defense. Circular is probably not a good way to describe the Tiger style.

Snake refers to the form the hand takes that's common when using guiding and wrapping techniques.

Don't go by the Blackbelt magazine descriptions of the styles. The Australian Kung Fu website descriptions are more accurate.

C'mon man, if TKD was his main system, then he'd say so. Why would he pretend to be KF for, as if it was something great back then?

If he actually studied Kung fu then he would have named the system and not just say 5 Animals Kung Fu. It would be the same if I told everyone here that I study Japanese Martial arts, but never tell anyone which Japanese fighting system I actually study. Because I don't say what fighting system I actually studied, people will assume that I may have just learned bits and pieces of techniques from a Japanese fighting system, which isn't the same thing as studying a fighting system. I can learn how to do a Muay Thai low kick and never study or train in Muay Thai. Just because I know how to do the kick doesn't mean that I study Muay Thai or even know techniques beyond that low kick.

 

[kuniggety]

It's possible he was talking about Ng Ga Kuen which is referred to as 5 Family or 5 Animal. It was taught by the late legendary Ark Wong who introduced kung fu to the US in the 60s. 5 animals are very prominent in Southern kung fu systems and I even learned some animal stances when I studied Okinawan karate as a kid because of Southern style kung fu influence on Okinawan karate. Entire forms and fighting styles have been developed from each animal. Hung Ga is another relatively widespread example of 5 Animals with them having the 5 animal fist forms with a special emphasis on tiger for its main "system" form.

 

[drop bear]

I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum. It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.

Neither the title of the video claim it is self defence, the description on youtube doesn't claim it's self defence, and he DVD it is taken from is called "What is martial arts", which again has nothing to do with self defence.

So in the spirit of the original post, here is a table tennis video to prove why table tennis is no good for self defence.

None of what was shown in this video is effective. Self defense, or otherwise, what is shown wouldn't be much help to you if someone is on top of you trying to bash your head in.

Ninjitsu is defined as a real world martial art. So self defence is implied.

bristol Ninpo taijutsu Fighting For life Not Sport

If they are not doing self defence what exactly do you think they were doing there?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum. It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.

Neither the title of the video claim it is self defence, the description on youtube doesn't claim it's self defence, and he DVD it is taken from is called "What is martial arts", which again has nothing to do with self defence.

Well, (speaking as a former Bujinkan student) Bujinkan practitioners will tell you that they don't practice for sport or for consensual challenge matches or for performance. Techniques are generally presented as being for self-defense and/or traditional combative applications from the samurai era. These are definitely not traditional applications, so I can conclude by process of elimination that they were probably being presented to the students as self-defense* applications against a mounted attacker.

*By "self-defense" in this context I am referring to just the subset of self-defense that involves physically fighting** off an aggressor, not the bigger picture of awareness, avoidance, threat hardening, de-escalation, etc, etc.

**I know you usually insist that "fighting" only refers to consensual fighting and that fighting in self-defense is not "fighting." I think that's more your unique take on terminology, though. In the Bujinkan, as in most martial arts, combative techniques are generally referred to as being for self-defense.

 

[drop bear]

And at this point I may as well mention again self defence taken literally is physical force. Because it is a defence against an assault charge. It is defined as a use of force.

The defences to assault are
CAMELS Consent, amicable contest, misadventure or accident, execution of law, lawful correction or chastisement, self defence

So you don't have to call self defence if you have pre empted an attack and walked away because nobody is going to charge you with anything.

Of course if you don't want to take the term literally then probably should be correcting other people for not doing it either.

But let's not just make up our own meaning of self defence. Then beat other people around the forums with it.

 

[FriedRice]

The animal styles in kung fu aren't all that special. It's more of a description of how one moves or how the hand is held. For example, money style is very mobile, it doesn't mean that the fighter is acting like a monkey. It just means that the fighter is mobile like one. In this style the fighter will fight on both horizontally and vertically. So the attack combination can literally be a combo punch to the face, mid section, and sweeping the feet. Then on the way back up the person can perform an attack while jumping.
Tiger styles are strong arm techniques usually involving attacks using the palm trying to grab soft areas like the face and gripping the face and pulling, each style has a particular animal related to the attack or defense. Circular is probably not a good way to describe the Tiger style.

Snake refers to the form the hand takes that's common when using guiding and wrapping techniques.

Don't go by the Blackbelt magazine descriptions of the styles. The Australian Kung Fu website descriptions are more accurate.

If he actually studied Kung fu then he would have named the system and not just say 5 Animals Kung Fu. It would be the same if I told everyone here that I study Japanese Martial arts, but never tell anyone which Japanese fighting system I actually study. Because I don't say what fighting system I actually studied, people will assume that I may have just learned bits and pieces of techniques from a Japanese fighting system, which isn't the same thing as studying a fighting system. I can learn how to do a Muay Thai low kick and never study or train in Muay Thai. Just because I know how to do the kick doesn't mean that I study Muay Thai or even know techniques beyond that low kick.

Thanks for the info. This is interesting stuff. I really don't know. I've trained with Wing Chun, Wushu, Shaolin, and Hung Fut Kung-Fu guys before...but only sparring, so I wouldn't know the intricacies of KF.

I really don't know why DeLucia would want to purposefully mislead people into thinking that he was a KF fighter. Because he's wearing the KF pants, red sash, tells the announcer to call him a KF fighter, said the same to Gracie in a closed gym match that he was KF, has a website about being mostly KF, etc... DeLucia, after his losses in the UFC and the UFC become very popular (until it almost got banned by Senator McCain)....started crosstraining BJJ and other grappling and fought in big time Pancrase tourneys in Japan where he was most successful. So I don't think he was lying to sell Kung-Fu or something b/c it made him the most profit, because he failed in the UFC....and at that time, the big money maker in MA was the TKD schools in every strip mall or even Karate, but not as much KF, as I recall.

Maybe DeLucia is selling his version of KF, called this "5 Animal Style"....just like how the Gracies sell their BJJ.....w/o ever mentioning Traditional Jujutsu and Judo from where their art comes from, because it would detract from their BJJ cash-cow. Maybe you should send DeLucia a quick email asking him what's his KF background.

 

[Hanzou]

Maybe DeLucia is selling his version of KF, called this "5 Animal Style"....just like how the Gracies sell their BJJ.....w/o ever mentioning Traditional Jujutsu and Judo from where their art comes from, because it would detract from their BJJ cash-cow. Maybe you should send DeLucia a quick email asking him what's his KF background.

The Gracies never mention Judo or Jujutsu?

They made it pretty clear from the beginning that they learned Jujutsu/Judo from Japanese sources. Namely Mitsuyo Maeda.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's possible he was talking about Ng Ga Kuen which is referred to as 5 Family or 5 Animal. It was taught by the late legendary Ark Wong who introduced kung fu to the US in the 60s. 5 animals are very prominent in Southern kung fu systems and I even learned some animal stances when I studied Okinawan karate as a kid because of Southern style kung fu influence on Okinawan karate. Entire forms and fighting styles have been developed from each animal. Hung Ga is another relatively widespread example of 5 Animals with them having the 5 animal fist forms with a special emphasis on tiger for its main "system" form.

Thanks for the info. I learned about another system today. I haven't heard of Ng Ga Kuen and took a look at some videos of it.

When I looked it up it I recognized some of the techniques and I was surprised to see that it uses Choy Gar and Hung Gar as well. It's one of those "Chinese MMA" systems that takes pieces from different systems. This is a good read about the system http://www.shenkungfu.com/Ng Ga Kuen Article 1 Watermarked.pdf

 

[JowGaWolf]

Thanks for the info. This is interesting stuff. I really don't know. I've trained with Wing Chun, Wushu, Shaolin, and Hung Fut Kung-Fu guys before...but only sparring, so I wouldn't know the intricacies of KF.

I really don't know why DeLucia would want to purposefully mislead people into thinking that he was a KF fighter. Because he's wearing the KF pants, red sash, tells the announcer to call him a KF fighter, said the same to Gracie in a closed gym match that he was KF, has a website about being mostly KF, etc... DeLucia, after his losses in the UFC and the UFC become very popular (until it almost got banned by Senator McCain)....started crosstraining BJJ and other grappling and fought in big time Pancrase tourneys in Japan where he was most successful. So I don't think he was lying to sell Kung-Fu or something b/c it made him the most profit, because he failed in the UFC....and at that time, the big money maker in MA was the TKD schools in every strip mall or even Karate, but not as much KF, as I recall.

Maybe DeLucia is selling his version of KF, called this "5 Animal Style"....just like how the Gracies sell their BJJ.....w/o ever mentioning Traditional Jujutsu and Judo from where their art comes from, because it would detract from their BJJ cash-cow. Maybe you should send DeLucia a quick email asking him what's his KF background.

I might reach out to him and ask if it becomes a big enough curiosity for me.

 

[kuniggety]

Thanks for the info. I learned about another system today. I haven't heard of Ng Ga Kuen and took a look at some videos of it.

My former Sigung, Stephen Baugh, studied at Ark Wong's school for a couple of years. If I would've studied with him longer I probably would've learned some of the forms but my emphasis was on Northern Shaolin at the time (Bak Sil Lum and 7* Praying Mantis). I did learn a salute form which I think came from the system though.

 

[Paul_D]

Ninjitsu is defined as a real world martial art. So self defence is implied.

bristol Ninpo taijutsu Fighting For life Not Sport

If they are not doing self defence what exactly do you think they were doing there?

It's only implied if you don't understand the difference between martial arts and self defence. Is it implied that people who do Kendo or HEMA broadsword training are also training self defence by virtue of the fact they are training a martial art? Of course not, that would be ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than thinking this video is self defence.

I think what they are doing is martial arts, and martial arts and self defence are not the same thing as explained here:-

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy

The video is not represented as SD, the words SD are not used by it, or in it, and it's clearly not an attempt to recreate the realities of civilian violence, and so should not be critiqued as such.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I really don't know why DeLucia would want to purposefully mislead people into thinking that he was a KF fighter.

So I don't think he was lying to sell Kung-Fu or something

It may have been the promoters that misled the public. They did it with Kimo by stating that he was a TKD black belt when he wasn't in order to boost his marketability.

 

[Hanzou]

It's only implied if you don't understand the difference between martial arts and self defence. Is it implied that people who do Kendo or HEMA broadsword training are also training self defence by virtue of the fact they are training a martial art? Of course not, that would be ridiculous, but no more ridiculous than thinking this video is self defence.

I think what they are doing is martial arts, and martial arts and self defence are not the same thing as explained here:-

The Martial Map (Free Audio Book) | Iain Abernethy

The video is not represented as SD, the words SD are not used by it, or in it, and it's clearly not an attempt to recreate the realities of civilian violence, and so should not be critiqued as such.

Um, it's Ninjutsu self defense against being pinned on the ground by an attacker. Are you saying that getting pinned to the ground by an attacker never happens in civilian self defense?

Also Tony stated that these techniques are not a part of traditional Ninjutsu. They're a more recent creation more than likely put in place to address the rise in popularity of grappling.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It may have been the promoters that misled the public. They did it with Kimo by stating that he was a TKD black belt when he wasn't in order to boost his marketability.

I've seen this with a Choe's Hapkido school where their marketing called it a "Korean Kung Fu" They added the words Kung Fu to the website so the school could show up in the search results for the term Kung Fu. Now they are doing it with Karate lol
Karate classes in Duluth, Georgia | Gwinnett Martial Arts Classes | Self Defense
This page says Hapkido on the school name but when you look into the description it's all about karate.