When the pursuit of "not being a sport" goes wrong...

[Hanzou]

Earlier I posted a thread about Bjj ground and pound defenses. Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;

Having been under a mount more times than I care to admit, none of what was shown in that video is effective. Self defense, or otherwise, what was shown wouldn't be much help to you if someone is on top of you trying to bash your head in.

In the description, the poster made it a point to say that this is different than "sport" ground fighting. Imust say, the pursuit of "not being a sport" can be quite detrimental to the development of effective techniques. Clearly these guys were trying to avoid looking like Judo/Bjj newaza which has been proven to be effective on multiple levels from training, to competition, to self defense, and instead developed their own variation and ended up with some rather shoddy results.

 

[Steve]

I agree that the video is just ridiculous. I also totally agree with your premise. It's just painful to see things like this.

I think it's great that hatsumi moves so well at his age.

 

[Skullpunch]

There's knowing the differences between sport and self defense and then there's just making it up. This is clearly in the latter category.

Anyone who thinks judo/bjj newaza is for sport rather than self defense is making up a false dichotomy. They were made for self defense, they just happened to work well for the purpose of sport when the time came to put it to the test but to pretend that this somehow retcons their effectiveness for self-defense is 100% pure unadulterated larping. Obviously there are specific, isolated sports techniques that I wouldn't use in a self-defense situation (stalling newaza positions in judo for a free standup, for example) but really, any idiot should know better when it comes to that.

 

[hoshin1600]

Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;

im not a Bujinkan guy or have any knowledge of Hatsumi's stuff outside of books from him and Hayes, but this does not look "traditional" to me. it seems to be more of Hatsumi trying to have an answer to the popularity of MMA and trying to be relevant in todays world. that being said if the OP is trying to show that TMA sucks for real world application or that it sucks when compared to MMA, i dont think this was a good representation of traditional. what it does show is that you cant be a master in one art and expect to be effective in something you never really did before.

 

[Skullpunch]

if the OP is trying to show that TMA sucks for real world application or that it sucks when compared to MMA

He wasn't. He was trying to show that you can only go so far with the dichotomy between "self defense" and "MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo" before it becomes manufactured and dilutes the shit out of your system.

 

[hoshin1600]

ok i will agree with that.
one thing i would like to point out is that we really have no idea what Hatsumi was actually showing. there is no dialog or input from him in the clip. so for all i know he was showing what not to do and someone posted it for their own purpose. it is possible that he was assuming the students knew "buck and roll" and other ways to get out of the position and was just blowing past that to get to a few small things you could add to it. but if it is as it looks ill admit it is rather sad.

 

[RTKDCMB]

i dont think this was a good representation of traditional

I don't think it was a good representation for anything. It was pretty poorly performed.

 

[Flying Crane]

He wasn't. He was trying to show that you can only go so far with the dichotomy between "self defense" and "MMA/NHB/Vale Tudo" before it becomes manufactured and dilutes the shit out of your system.

Of course he was. That's what he does, that is his motive for being here. He searches for bad examples (which I agree there are plenty of) and then uses those to push his case that all things TMA suck. Whether or not Hatsumi's examples in that video suck isn't for me to judge.

I thought Hanzou and I had something of a breakthrough yesterday in the sparring thread, on the subject of forms. I had hoped that might carry over into the larger debate of TMA vs, MMA, but I see that sadly, I was wrong.

There is just way way too much of this in Hanzou's posting history to be able to pretend this is anything but another jab at TMA as a whole.

 

[Hanzou]

Of course he was. That's what he does, that is his motive for being here. He searches for bad examples (which I agree there are plenty of) and then uses those to push his case that all things TMA suck. Whether or not Hatsumi's examples in that video suck isn't for me to judge.

I thought Hanzou and I had something of a breakthrough yesterday in the sparring thread, on the subject of forms. I had hoped that might carry over into the larger debate of TMA vs, MMA, but I see that sadly, I was wrong.

There is just way way too much of this in Hanzou's posting history to be able to pretend this is anything but another jab at TMA as a whole.

I don't know enough about Ninjutsu to pass judgement on the art as a whole. However, I know enough about newaza to know that the techniques in that vid were bunk.

I do believe that the goal was to create a system of techniques that were "non-sport", and as another poster said, to address the popularity of MMA. No different than what we saw from the WC anti-grappling vids.

The problem is that those "sport techniques" work regardless, and attempting to deviate too far from science and common sense can have dire consequences. If you seek to bring ground fighting into your system, there is no shame in simply incorporating Bjj or another proven grappling system into style.

 

[Skullpunch]

There is just way way too much of this in Hanzou's posting history to be able to pretend this is anything but another jab at TMA as a whole.

Judo and BJJ are both more traditional than ninjitsu, at least according to the way I define the word "traditional", so I don't quite see how this adds up? They're both more or less styles of wrestling and the way I see it wrestling is about as traditional as a martial art can possibly get.

Anyway, I'm just taking Hanzou's post at face value, for the purpose of this discussion and the specific dialogue that we're having I couldn't care less about his previous jabs at whatever styles, those are another can of worms.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can repeat 10,000 "hip throw" in "partner drill", it still doesn't mean that you can pull your "hip throw" out on the mat. If you just train "partner drill" as shown in that clip, you can "develop" some skill. Until you can "test" your skill in sparring/wrestling, you truly don't have that skill yet.

The problem for self-defense approach is you don't have a good safe environment to "test" your skill. One day you get old, you no longer "test" your skill in the ring or on the mat, you invent some new skills. Since you think those new skills "should" work in the ring or on the mat, you teach it to your students. Now some untested skills have been passed down from one generation to the next generation. This is the general problem for the TMA - old teachers pass down un-tested skills to students.

In "sport" approach, it's very easy to separate "high successful rate skills" vs. "low successful rate skills". In "self-defense" approach, you don't have that advantage.

 

[Steve]

im not a Bujinkan guy or have any knowledge of Hatsumi's stuff outside of books from him and Hayes, but this does not look "traditional" to me. it seems to be more of Hatsumi trying to have an answer to the popularity of MMA and trying to be relevant in todays world. that being said if the OP is trying to show that TMA sucks for real world application or that it sucks when compared to MMA, i dont think this was a good representation of traditional. what it does show is that you cant be a master in one art and expect to be effective in something you never really did before.

Agreed. I'd be reluctant to draw any conclusions from this. At the same time, I'd really question the bias of anyone who tries to rationalize this, too. whatever else might be good out there, this ain't it.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'm pretty certain that none of the techniques shown in that video are traditional to any of the 9 ryu that make up the Bujinkan. Rather they are creative expressions of Hatsumi's movement based on the principles he has derived from those arts.

Unfortunately, Hatsumi has reached the point in his life where his ukes essentially go along with whatever he demonstrates rather than react to his techniques in any sort of realistic manner. In the absence of any sort of meaningful feedback, some of his creative expressions become pretty detached from reality. I'd say it's less of an issue with "sport" vs "street" and more of a problem with putting a teacher on too high of a pedestal.

I do think that there are some important distinctions to bear in mind between "sport" and "street", but I think it's a mistake to believe the demarcation is in any way absolute.

I had the privilege of spending some time training and trading knowledge with @yak sao earlier today. He got me started on the fundamentals of Wing Tsun and I shared some BJJ with him. He has no interest in sport grappling competition. The main thing he wanted from BJJ was some tips on protecting himself and getting safely back to his feet in the event that he were to be taken to the ground in a fight. We covered a few of the more common scenarios of how that might happen in a street fight and (since sport rules were irrelevant), we touched on the use of and defense against groin strikes, head butts, and eye gouges in that context. Even though we dealt with those "street" tactics, they were in the context of fundamental movements, structures, and techniques that are used all the time in sport BJJ. The structure is the same - the application is just modified appropriately for the context.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Judo and BJJ are both more traditional than ninjitsu, at least according to the way I define the word "traditional", so I don't quite see how this adds up? They're both more or less styles of wrestling and the way I see it wrestling is about as traditional as a martial art can possibly get.

Anyway, I'm just taking Hanzou's post at face value, for the purpose of this discussion and the specific dialogue that we're having I couldn't care less about his previous jabs at whatever styles, those are another can of worms.

Nope it's going to be the same can of worms.. just different post lol

 

[Buka]

I hope somebody stops me from being in front of a camera when I'm eighty four. Just because.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Here is a different take on ground and pound from a more "traditional" perspective;
When your opponent is on the ground, don't get on the ground with them, remain standing and deliver some basic traditional kicks.

 

[drop bear]

Self defence is an addition to your basic methods.

So in this specific instance. Make your basic ground defence work. Then look for a whole raft of dirty deeds to add to that.

Where it fails is people who have fallen and can't get up because they are terrible practitioners of martial arts. So instead of getting good. They cheat.

Martial arts is an arms race. So if you are crap and he is crap. But you are dirtier you have an advantage. If he is good and you are crap then he has the advantage.

This is almost universal. If he is fundamentally good. He can apply dirty techniques better than you can if you are crap. This is because the ability to apply any technique relies on your basic skill level.

 

[JowGaWolf]

just some more basic kicks.

The point is that just because someone takes a defensive position on their back doesn't mean that the next thing that will happen is a ground and pound. If general traditional martial arts perspective exist it would probably be that being on the ground is a bad thing so do everything you can to not end up on the ground or to get up from the ground.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I hope somebody stops me from being in front of a camera when I'm eighty four. Just because.

Nah, it's cool as long as your demo partners aren't trying to sell the notion that you're still* a magical anime warrior who can send them all flying just by waving your hands.

*(I mean, obviously you could do that when you were younger, but those powers start to fade by age 75 at the latest.)

 

[drop bear]

just some more basic kicks.

The point is that just because someone takes a defensive position on their back doesn't mean that the next thing that will happen is a ground and pound. If general traditional martial arts perspective exist it would probably be that being on the ground is a bad thing so do everything you can to not end up on the ground or to get up from the ground.

There is an emphasis on getting up off the ground.
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