oftheherd1
Senior Master
Amazing answer.
I guess I could explain that I was simply practicing my arts grappling kata when Lo and Behold, a man swinging a club suddenly and without warning, appeared in front of me. What else could I do?
When the kata is applied to self defense
- Thread starter Hanzou
- Start date
Amazing answer.
I guess I could explain that I was simply practicing my arts grappling kata when Lo and Behold, a man swinging a club suddenly and without warning, appeared in front of me. What else could I do?
pgsmith
Master of Arts
Nope. I have trouble understanding why you consider it worthy of so much thought and effort on your part. People are subjected to a constant stream of lies and half truths every day. Why is this particular subject so much worse than so many others that have a much greater effect on a great many more people? That's what I don't understand.
It's a pretty small group of people that's affected by poor martial arts training, and the effect is negligible overall. I just don't see why so many consider it a subject worth so much of their thought and effort. So far, no one has been able to explain it in such a way as to make it understandable to me, that's all.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
There are. However, to believe that it is as extensive as Judo or Bjj is nonsense.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
So you believe that a couple of posts about the topic (which amounts to about 2 paragraphs) is an example of "extensive thought and effort"?
We're simply talking about the issue as it relates to the topic at hand and giving our opinions. No one in here is going to write a research paper about this, so you can relax.
pgsmith
Master of Arts
Let's review, since you insist on being snarky about it ...
You started this thread by posting a 12 minute video (that you obviously watched) just so you could talk about how terrible what they were doing was. That seems like a huge waste of time and effort to me. I didn't even have to bother watching it to look them up and find out that they were under Stephen Hayes. That means that I wouldn't care for most of what they were doing, so I was done in about a minute. (No, that WASN'T what she said!)
I am perfectly relaxed, thanks for worrying about me. I never insinuated that you or anyone else might ever feel a need to write a research paper about this topic or any other. I merely gave my opinion (since you said we were all giving our opinions) that I didn't understand why you (or anyone else) would find this subject worth so much effort. Seems like a grand waste of time to me when there are so many more interesting things to discuss.
I was merely expressing my opinion, as I made sure and pointed out. I was hoping someone could explain to me why it mattered, but I guess I shall remain in the dark on this subject. This is not a problem as it was only minor curiosity, and I've already expended more effort in this thread than it merits, in my opinion.
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Well I wasn't discussing how terrible they were in particular, I was discussing the larger issue of schools that follow a similar system and end up with similar results. In any case, I do hope you find a thread that you view is more worthy of your time.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
And this is where we start to get into the expected ROI on one's time. While I think kata might not be detrimental to learning, there are more efficient and reliable waus to build skill.
Martial D
Senior Master
So fakery doesn't bother you?
It does bother me. Not just in this context, but any context I am personally passionate about or deeply involved in. Not only is it dangerous for the duped students that have been sold snake oil they might actually drink to no effect when they need it most, ending up dead or grieviously injured, but because it's insulting to the science of martial arts and fighting in general.
That I care about martial arts means I want to see it progress in a useful direction, as a whole. The prevalence of charlatans and fakers taking advantage of people for profit in this medium rubs my fur in the wrong direction.
now disabled
Master Black Belt
Whoa ... This is getting a bit silly now ... it one thing to say and have your opinion that you don't like things but it another totally to say that instructors are lying
now disabled
Master Black Belt
When you say this context are you referring to Kata etc et al ?
To use words like Fakery etc if that is referring to Kata usage etc then that is a very dangerous ground to be treading
now disabled
Master Black Belt
I can understand your view and standpoint and have no problem in that at all, I have a different stand point as I said they are building blocks and reference points how they are used then is up to the teacher how to teach and make them applicable etc and then for the students to ask if they either do not understand or are not seeing the application
Martial D
Senior Master
What I refer to is what I said. You will notice(or actually, maybe you wont) that the post I was responding to wasn't talking about 'kata usage'
I can see why someone that actually believes in 'no touch' techniques would dislike my post tho lol.
now disabled
Master Black Belt
OP
OP
Hanzou
Grandmaster
Except if they say that there is an extensive grappling curriculum hidden within kata, they ARE lying.
Martial D
Senior Master
Also, why wouldn't some instructors lie? The fake martial arts game is very lucrative, and where there is opportunity there will usually be someone taking advantage of it...it's just human nature. It isn't like the decision to start teaching a martial art embues instant sainthood lol.
oftheherd1
Senior Master
Well, disregarding the word extensive, can this be considered an answer to my question? Do you believe there are no grappling moves hidden in any martial arts kata?
As far as I know, that's a nope...
Hatsumi in the Bujinkan has repirtedly made it very clear that youbcan train in his art in the Bujinkan, or in one of the offshoots, but not both. Regardless of what those in the offshoot may feel.
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oftheherd1
Senior Master
Oh my oh my oh my!!
Please, say it ain't so!
I don't think I will be able to sleep tonight.
I think "hidden" is the wrong word myself.
I think they're there, but they've either been forgotten (in old kata) or misinterpreted, even by the creator (in newer ones, because they're pretty much all rehashes of older sequences anyway).
I don't believe there's a single interpretation of the sets of moves in any kata...
I have raised this concern many years ago. When I saw a teacher demonstrated on his student that when the student made 1 attack, the teacher countered with 6 moves as if the teacher was 6 times faster than the student. The student just frozen himself in the air. I started to ask myself, how could I avoid this kind of training issue. The answer is simple. I always attack first. If I attack fast, I will force my opponent to respond fast. It then will force me to respond to his respond fast.
In the normal situation, when you make one move, your opponent will respond with one move.
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