When the kata is applied to self defense

[Steve]

Ok is your view that MMA is the king of all ?

king of what? I know you asked hanzou but my opinion is that mma is very good at producing competent, well rounded fighters. You can start training mma as an out of shape man or woman, and see predictable, repeatable results. Your practical skill level will improve quickly as will your level of fitness. I don't know about king, though. Not sure what that means.

The same is true for any component style if trained similarly, whether thats muay thai, bjj, sambo, judo, wrestling, and even karate and tkd. Karate isn't the problem. It is the lack of practical application. Sport gives you this in the absence of other examples, such as cop, bouncer, or professional hit man. Most people find competition to be more accessible than these.

 

[now disabled]

I would say that MMA has proven itself to be highly effective, but it isn't the king. MMA is a combination of very effective martial arts (typically Bjj, MT Kickboxing, wrestling, boxing, etc.) which makes it a very effective system in of itself.

As a Bjj practitioner, I appreciate the existence of MMA because it keeps my style honest. Anytime we veer off into Berimbolo land, MMA is there to punch us in the face and bring us back to reality.

Ok advice noted

 

[now disabled]

king of what? I know you asked hanzou but my opinion is that mma is very good at producing competent, well rounded fighters. You can start training mma as an out of shape man or woman, and see predictable, repeatable results. Your practical skill level will improve quickly as will your level of fitness. I don't know about king, though. Not sure what that means.

The same is true for any component style if trained similarly, whether thats muay thai, bjj, sambo, judo, wrestling, and even karate and tkd. Karate isn't the problem. It is the lack of practical application. Sport gives you this in the absence of other examples, such as cop, bouncer, or professional hit man. Most people find competition to be more accessible than these.

There is where we will differ ....you have your view that sport defines ...I don't ...so we agree to disagree

 

[Hanzou]

Just curious, is there anything you know of hidden in kata, or no longer know in the kata?

Are you asking me if I know the Bunkai of kata? I've studied the bunkai of Shotokan karate personally (via seminar many years ago), and I've read and viewed videos from other karate systems.

Personally, I'm not a fan of it, and some applications of Bunkai have been utterly hilarious. People claiming that Bjj-style groundfighting exists inside karate kata is one such example.

 

[Steve]

There is where we will differ ....you have your view that sport defines ...I don't ...so we agree to disagree

Not quite right. Sport isnt the root. Application is the root. Sport is simply the most accessible form of application for most people.

I'm fine if we agree to disagree procided you're disagreeing with my actual opinion and not a distortion of it .

 

[now disabled]

Not quite right. Sport isnt the root. Application is the root. Sport is simply the most accessible form of application for most people.

I'm fine if we agree to disagree procided you're disagreeing with my actual opinion and not a distortion of it .

I see what you mean I just view sport as that sport ... real life doesn't have the same rules constraining it as a sport does but again we just have to agree to disagree

 

[Hanzou]

I see what you mean I just view sport as that sport ... real life doesn't have the same rules constraining it as a sport does but again we just have to agree to disagree

Yes it does. Those rules are called "laws". Break those laws and you could spend quite a long time in jail, whether you were defending yourself or not.

 

[oftheherd1]

Are you asking me if I know the Bunkai of kata? I've studied the bunkai of Shotokan karate personally (via seminar many years ago), and I've read and viewed videos from other karate systems.

Personally, I'm not a fan of it, and some applications of Bunkai have been utterly hilarious. People claiming that Bjj-style groundfighting exists inside karate kata is one such example.

Well, what I asked was if there was anything you know of hidden in kata or no longer known (recognized as a viable technique) in the kata? Your answer doesn't really answer that.

 

[now disabled]

Yes it does. Those rules are called "laws". Break those laws and you could spend quite a long time in jail, whether you were defending yourself or not.

No in a sport you have things that are set in place to only permit certain things ....in the real world yes there are laws but those kinda go out the window if your in a scrap ...and you (or at least I have never thought) nope can't use that as it could break the law ...

 

[Hanzou]

No in a sport you have things that are set in place to only permit certain things ....in the real world yes there are laws but those kinda go out the window if your in a scrap ...and you (or at least I have never thought) nope can't use that as it could break the law ...

No they don't. If you get into a scrap and seriously hurt or kill someone, you better be prepared to talk to the police about why you felt that use of force was necessary over a spilled beer or some goon pushing you because you accidentally hit his car. If your explanation sucks, you're going away for a long time.

 

[now disabled]

No they don't. If you get into a scrap and seriously hurt or kill someone, you better be prepared to talk to the police about why you felt that use of force was necessary over a spilled beer or some goon pushing you because you accidentally hit his car. If your explanation sucks, you're going away for a long time.

That is entirely different from the sports ring

 

[Hanzou]

That is entirely different from the sports ring

The issue of contention is the belief that "tEh StreetZ" is no rules. My point is that that isn't usually the case.

 

[now disabled]

The issue of contention is the belief that "tEh StreetZ" is no rules. My point is that that isn't usually the case.

Ok but no matter the law of the land .... I would not rely on said by thinking on he can't do that or I can't do this in a fight.... the referees are not usually present on the street when a scrap goes down (the cops) where as in sport they are (ok they may miss things but they are on the plot)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I took it to mean that the combat (I.e., application) produced the competent fighters. Someone earlier brought up basic training. The military training model is grounded in a training/application/training cycle . You learn it, you do it, you learn some more and then do some more . When I got to my first duty station, I was fully trained, but wrnt through 6 more months of ojt before I was able to even look at ordnance with direct supervision.

I was trying to keep from getting wordy (who, me??) so I left that half out. Maybe I left out the wrong half, because that's a better statement.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see what you mean I just view sport as that sport ... real life doesn't have the same rules constraining it as a sport does but again we just have to agree to disagree

The most important rules we deal with in MA are physics and kinesiology. Those apply roughly equally in both street and sport. Thus, what works in sport will (mostly) have application in street. It's not an absolute, but a reasonable truism, and serves well if we apply common sense. Of course, there are some bits that don't show up in sport that can and do sometimes serve in street, and we have to be more skeptical of those, because we don't have the sport experiment to test them in.

I don't personally compete, but I do use what I can learn from those who do, both from their personal experience and from reviewing sport footage. I've trained in competition styles (my experience with Juod and a brief bit of Shotokan Karate), and the approach isn't wildly different - nor should it be.

 

[now disabled]

The most important rules we deal with in MA are physics and kinesiology. Those apply roughly equally in both street and sport. Thus, what works in sport will (mostly) have application in street. It's not an absolute, but a reasonable truism, and serves well if we apply common sense. Of course, there are some bits that don't show up in sport that can and do sometimes serve in street, and we have to be more skeptical of those, because we don't have the sport experiment to test them in.


I will agree mostly there I just have I guess a different view on the sports side

I did compete in two arts when I was younger and it just didn't feel right to me ...as esp in one it was limited to what and what was not permitted ...

I don't personally compete, but I do use what I can learn from those who do, both from their personal experience and from reviewing sport footage. I've trained in competition styles (my experience with Juod and a brief bit of Shotokan Karate), and the approach isn't wildly different - nor should it be.

 

[now disabled]

Are you asking me if I know the Bunkai of kata? I've studied the bunkai of Shotokan karate personally (via seminar many years ago), and I've read and viewed videos from other karate systems.

Personally, I'm not a fan of it, and some applications of Bunkai have been utterly hilarious. People claiming that Bjj-style groundfighting exists inside karate kata is one such example.

I think I will let the Karate guys deal with that one

but just for your info ....you might like to know that a very very well know Karateka studied a Koryu jiu-jutsu art

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will agree mostly there I just have I guess a different view on the sports side

I did compete in two arts when I was younger and it just didn't feel right to me ...as esp in one it was limited to what and what was not permitted ..

The applicability of what happens in sport varies by the ruleset used. As does the value of the sport as a training tool. Both BJJ and Judo competitions produce useful feedback, but require some application of common sense to for adapting the results to self-defense, since the sports largely don't include significant strikes (there may be some BJJ competitions that allow some, but I'm not aware of them). So some positions that work well in those competitions may not be effective if the other guy decides to punch, but the techniques (especially the control principles) still work quite nicely. And we know they can be applied effectively in defensive use, because they can be applied effectively against someone of equal skill in the sport context. I've actually altered how I teach some techniques to draw on what works in Judo competitions.

 

[Hanzou]

Ok but no matter the law of the land .... I would not rely on said by thinking on he can't do that or I can't do this in a fight.... the referees are not usually present on the street when a scrap goes down (the cops) where as in sport they are (ok they may miss things but they are on the plot)

Which is why you should be capable of restraining yourself from destroying your opponent unless it is absolutely necessary. This is the genius of Jigoro Kano by the way, because Judo (and Bjj) teaches you to control, not obliterate your opponent. Of course you can if you deem it necessary, but it is so out of bounds of your training that it is unlikely to occur unless it is absolutely necessary.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you asking me if I know the Bunkai of kata? I've studied the bunkai of Shotokan karate personally (via seminar many years ago), and I've read and viewed videos from other karate systems.

Personally, I'm not a fan of it, and some applications of Bunkai have been utterly hilarious. People claiming that Bjj-style groundfighting exists inside karate kata is one such example.

I guess that depends how you view kata. If it's just a collection of movements being trained, then if someone who does good BJJ-style groundwork finds useful movement references in the kata, then those movements are there. If we accept "bunkai" as application of the movements (rather than distilling the original intentions of the kata creator), then the groundwork is in that bunkai. I'm not sure what the translation/meaning of bunkai is, but I tend to see this (using movements as reference) as a better use than trying to dig back to original intent. If someone takes one of my kata and says, "Right there, that sequence of movements has the right transitions and positions for X technique", then I"m okay with that, even if that technique isn't one I am aware of.