When the kata is applied to self defense

[Hanzou]

It is good to see schools like this begin to advertise what they teach on the web. I think it is also good to see what they teach so that I can avoid these schools like the plague.

Clearly they're applying some sort of kata to a self defense sequence. One of the reasons I've never liked this form of teaching is because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

I see women in the video, and I just shudder to think of a woman attempting this stuff against a larger person trying to take advantage of them.

This is why sparring and communicating with other styles is important. It would be great if places like this allowed a wrestler or boxer into their ranks to pressure test what they are doing. Such pressure testing would shed away the nonsense, and improve the style overall.

 

[pdg]

Clearly they're applying some sort of kata to a self defense sequence. One of the reasons I've never liked this form of teaching is because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

If that's all they ever do then yes it's a problem of sorts.

But, doing that sort of thing helps with the notion of combinations and how to transition from one technique to the next.

 

[Anarax]

It is good to see schools like this begin to advertise what they teach on the web. I think it is also good to see what they teach so that I can avoid these schools like the plague.

Clearly they're applying some sort of kata to a self defense sequence. One of the reasons I've never liked this form of teaching is because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

I see women in the video, and I just shudder to think of a woman attempting this stuff against a larger person trying to take advantage of them.

This is why sparring and communicating with other styles is important. It would be great if places like this allowed a wrestler or boxer into their ranks to pressure test what they are doing. Such pressure testing would shed away the nonsense, and improve the style overall.

Bunkai(form application) can be a useful component in martial arts training. The realism of the Bunkai will vary from school to school. I agree that there are schools that rely on an overreaction from their Bunkai partner and such reactions will prevent them from becoming proficient. However, if the Bunkai in done with realistic energy it will help the student fine tune their skill/techniques.

 

[JR 137]

If that's all they ever do then yes it's a problem of sorts.

But, doing that sort of thing helps with the notion of combinations and how to transition from one technique to the next.

Some people take the choreographed stuff way too literally. My organization does a ton of choreographed stuff; solo and with partners. When I first started doing that stuff in my previous organization, at first I thought it would work really well in a fight. After a few months, I thought a fight would never go that way and thought they were a waste of time. After some more experience, I realized what they actually were - drills. Drills that teach where to block, when to block, how to block, and which block to use. They teach footwork and distancing. They teach how to flow from block to strike. They teach what stroke to use and which targets to hit with them. They teach how to use the basics together in a seem less way.

What they don’t teach is “your opponent WILL do this, then you WILL do that.”

It’s like a football player running through a play in practice. First they run the play with the defense not doing much except standing around and moving with them. Then they’ll run it against the fully resisting defense. Of course the defense will try to stop it and throw a wrench in their plan. They’ll do common things typical defenses will do. The offense will adjust on the fly and make it work. It doesn’t have to be the EXACT way it was drawn up, but it’ll work. Quarterbacks have first, second, third, etc. options.

The choreographed stuff shouldn’t be any different. They should teach principles and not rigid responses. Some students and teachers lose sight of that. Sometimes teachers get so stuck on having the students perfect the curriculum that they forget to instill that that stuff is supposed to teach principles and not actual textbook responses. My teacher does a good job of explaining that, but honestly he could say it more often.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic.

If

1. you attack first (such as a groin kick),
2. your opponent responds to your attack (such as a downward block),
3. you then respond to his respond (such as a face punch).

This way the 1-2-3 sequence will be in realistic speed. I truly don't understand why most MA schools don't use this kind of teaching method.

 

[Steve]

is This considered good budo taijutsu?

 

[JR 137]

is This considered good budo taijutsu?

Great question.

 

[Hanzou]

is This considered good budo taijutsu?

Considering the number of likes, I would say yes. I've seen Masaaki Hatsumi and Hayes do similar stuff.

 

[Hanzou]

If

1. you attack first (such as a groin kick),
2. your opponent responds to your attack (such as a downward block),
3. you then respond to his respond (such as a face punch).

This way the 1-2-3 sequence will be in realistic speed. I truly don't understand why most MA schools don't use this kind of teaching method.

Wouldn't sparring be a better way to do that?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is good to see schools like this begin to advertise what they teach on the web. I think it is also good to see what they teach so that I can avoid these schools like the plague.

Clearly they're applying some sort of kata to a self defense sequence. One of the reasons I've never liked this form of teaching is because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

I don't see it as much different than training a punching combo in boxing. If you train a jab-straight-hook combo, what if the guy steps off to his left before the hook? What if he throws an uppercut in the middle of that? Every combination of movements is simply a single potential solution that only applies if the situation works out that way. With longer sequences, I see the transitions between individual elements as the point. In other words, you're not practicing block-grab-pull-side kick-takedown. You're practicing block-grab, and grab-pull, and pull-side kick, and side kick-takedown. You're just chaining them together, instead of working them separately. All the same issues could be said of shadow boxing, though that does at least have the advantage of usually being more variable.

I see women in the video, and I just shudder to think of a woman attempting this stuff against a larger person trying to take advantage of them.

Is the issue the flow from element to element, or the techniques being used? Because I wouldn't expect someone to blindly follow the sequence if the person isn't in place for the next step.

This is why sparring and communicating with other styles is important. It would be great if places like this allowed a wrestler or boxer into their ranks to pressure test what they are doing. Such pressure testing would shed away the nonsense, and improve the style overall.

This I agree with a lot. Even sparring within the style will help prevent people from thinking (as some might, if the instructor doesn't explicitly teach otherwise) that the flow is likely to be that predictable.

 

[Steve]

I don't see it as much different than training a punching combo in boxing. If you train a jab-straight-hook combo, what if the guy steps off to his left before the hook? What if he throws an uppercut in the middle of that? Every combination of movements is simply a single potential solution that only applies if the situation works out that way. With longer sequences, I see the transitions between individual elements as the point. In other words, you're not practicing block-grab-pull-side kick-takedown. You're practicing block-grab, and grab-pull, and pull-side kick, and side kick-takedown. You're just chaining them together, instead of working them separately. All the same issues could be said of shadow boxing, though that does at least have the advantage of usually being more variable.


Is the issue the flow from element to element, or the techniques being used? Because I wouldn't expect someone to blindly follow the sequence if the person isn't in place for the next step.


This I agree with a lot. Even sparring within the style will help prevent people from thinking (as some might, if the instructor doesn't explicitly teach otherwise) that the flow is likely to be that predictable.

I’ve never seen anyone learn a boxing combo like that. Maybe so, but I’ve never seen it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’ve never seen anyone learn a boxing combo like that. Maybe so, but I’ve never seen it.

Like what? I'm missing your point, Steve.

 

[Hanzou]

Like what? I'm missing your point, Steve.

I believe what Steve means is that boxers don't stand in front of each other with one standing there pretending to take a punch as his partner lightly taps him.

 

[Hanzou]

If that's all they ever do then yes it's a problem of sorts.

But, doing that sort of thing helps with the notion of combinations and how to transition from one technique to the next.

What if the technique is flawed on a fundamental level?

 

[Steve]

Like what? I'm missing your point, Steve.

I’ve been giving this some thought. I think there are many differences, but the most important one is that boxers don’t generally fake the outcome of a punch. They train the technique, work combos on focus mitts to practice delivering the technique with power and proper footwork, and then spar. In this video, the entire sequence is, they do this, so you punch them here, then they do that, then you parry the punch.

I only bring this up because you said you don’t see a difference between the video and how a boxer learns a combo. I really don’t think the learning process is very similar.

 

[drop bear]

I’ve never seen anyone learn a boxing combo like that. Maybe so, but I’ve never seen it.

Dutch drills.

But the idea is the drills are trained because of the hands on experience of the trainer.

So there are different qualifiers.

 

[now disabled]

It is good to see schools like this begin to advertise what they teach on the web. I think it is also good to see what they teach so that I can avoid these schools like the plague.

Clearly they're applying some sort of kata to a self defense sequence. One of the reasons I've never liked this form of teaching is because the supposed reaction to the strike or technique is almost never realistic. In one part of this video, the instructor blocks and grabs the student's wrist, pulls them forward, side kicks him, causing the target to double over, which then supposedly sets up a takedown. Well, what if the person doesn't double over? What if the person pulls his hand back and clocks you with his other hand? What if you're not strong enough to pull the person forward to set up the side kick?

I see women in the video, and I just shudder to think of a woman attempting this stuff against a larger person trying to take advantage of them.

This is why sparring and communicating with other styles is important. It would be great if places like this allowed a wrestler or boxer into their ranks to pressure test what they are doing. Such pressure testing would shed away the nonsense, and improve the style overall.

Now I ave stayed out of this as what I am going to say will probably upset going on past experience but I will not stay silent when a very narrow minded view is adopted.

First I would suggest you go and look up what the definition of Kata means ..... then

I would suggest that you also (you seem hell bent on dumping on everything that you view as not real because of videos) go and research what Kihon waza is and why it is done ...

Also I would put to you directly this ... When you were taught to read etc , did you start of by learning from simple books and very simple sentences or did you start learning by having say War and Peace put in front of you or Shakespeare or the Greek classics?

If you can answer that sir then and going and doing some simple research on how some arts are taught and why and finding out about Kihon and Kata then you just might grasp things slightly better.

Is it you just have a personal bias against any Arts that teach by use of Kata and Kihon ? or could it be that you yourself don't and do not want to understand that way?

Also may I point out that your avatar is (I presume you know who that is and his history) that in his art (that he developed and in the art the arts he developed it from) there are Kata (yes Kata has more than one meaning ) there is Katame no Kata and Nage no Kata and Randori no Kata ..................... now There is also Goshin Jutsu and Randori no waza ............ so if you are going to do the latter two then I would suggest that the other Kata have to be learned first (yes there are more Kata that them) or is that not the case? and there by you are saying then Judo is no good as how it teaches? .....

 

[now disabled]

Wouldn't sparring be a better way to do that?

You seriously do need to go and research what Kata actually are before you start slating etc lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I believe what Steve means is that boxers don't stand in front of each other with one standing there pretending to take a punch as his partner lightly taps him.

I agree that's not something I've seen, except in demos. Usually they use the air, focus mitts, or a heavy bag for practicing combinations repetitively. All of those can be hit harder, and you just have to assume the next position (air), react to the position provided by the trainer (mitts), or follow the movement of the bag.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What if the technique is flawed on a fundamental level?

That's a different issue, and more fundamental, IMO.