When is a beginner no longer a beginner?

[CaffeineKing]

Hi guys, your expert opinions please.

As some of you will know from the Meet and Greet section, I'm an academic psychologist with a keen interest in mental toughness and the benefits it can bring. I'm also keen to see how the martial arts may be able to provide long lasting benefits in this area (more on that in another thread to come). But to ascertain any changes here, I'm going to have to do one of two things:

(a) Compare "beginners" with "experts". Do scores differ? This is by far the easiest option but it's got its problems. For starters, are the experts among you mentally "tougher". Or, considering the mental and time demands of a martial art, are only the tougher ones left at the end?

(b) Take beginners, and monitor them over the course of months and years; do they improve mentally?

Whichever we do, here's the problem. What is a beginner? A White belt? Someone who's been training regularly for less than three months? Even worse, what's the definition an expert? My guess is that "black belt" is a variable term? Furthermore, can different martial arts possibly be compared? Does this mean than I'll have to pick just the one martial art as they can't be compared? What are people's thoughts? I've love some comments. Thanks in advance.

PS. Apologies if this is not in the right section! I'm such a newbie.

 

[bluekey88]

Hmm, I get where you're going with this (I'm in the psychology field myself). As I understand it, there aren't a LOT of deifferences between beginners and experts, but the differences are pretty big. One things that sets experts apart is not so much in breadth of knowledge (how much stuff they know) but in how they "chunk" and access the knowledge. An expert martial artist is going to have made a lot more cognitive connections about various aspects of their art that the beginner hasn't made.

For example, a beginner is often taught specifics "tricks" to do a technique right (for example, turning the fist over with a snapping motion to get more "pop" or snap to the punch). The beginner may do this because they are told to...or they may not do it because they do not see the benefit of doing such a "wierd" motion. However, the expert has a depper level of knowledge and as come to understand through experience that these little tricks lead to better technique.

Another example of depth of knowledge would be that an expert is more reafdily able to generalize their knowledge to novel situations. They can "go with the flow" and adapt better, beginners are not as readily able to do that.

In the end I think expereince is the key. Mental toughness i think comes from expeience and learning what one can and can't do and developing the patience to hang in and adapt to diffiuclt situations, developing a depth of knowledge about one's art (not just breadth of knowledge) and how to use it.

Hope this makes sense. It's still early yet.

Peace,
Erik

 

[morph4me]

My guess is that you'd have to follow beginners using the smae criteria over a period of time, e.g. start with someone who has less than a month and is training 3 times an week and track their progress until they either become black belts in their perspective arts, or quit, that way your criteria remains objective. Expertise is subjective, basically if I know more about something than anyone else in the room, I've become the "expert". I think that you'll find that the problem with people sticking around is more about the "plateau's" than almost anything else in the training regimen.

 

[Xue Sheng]

When is a beginner no longer a beginner?

Hopefully never

 

[Franc0]

Since rank, which some use to measure the difference between beginners and experts, is not a major issue with my student base, I give them this tidbit which could cover some of your questions.
Most 1st time students start out nervous, scared and stiff. Fear is a bottom line factor and "mental toughness" is not as prevelant at this time. The longer you train, the better you get, which in turn raises your "martial" self confidence. After awhile, you begin to realise that you can defend yourself unlike before, so the building self confidence grows stronger with your physical ability while diminishing fear. No fear equals a mentally tougher practitioner/fighter. I'd like to think an "expert" can control fear and use it to their advantage as opposed to letting it take control when the s**t hits the fan. :asian:
The time taken to reach this is usually dependant on the individual and training intensity.

Franco

 

[ChingChuan]

In my school, beginners are no longer beginners when they can participate in a regular class.
Usually, beginners are instructed seperately from the 'main class' because they don't understand everything. After a few weeks/months, they can join in without having to be told what everything is... It's not necessary to be 'perfect' (no-one is, after all) but it is necessary to have some idea of what's going on.

However, how do you define mental thoughness? The ability to 'go on' even when you're tired and sore? Well, I think that this quality can be found in both beginners as experts... One gets better in an art over time (more flexible, stronger etc) so then you need to be 'less though' (less sores etc), so I'd guess that beginners need more mental strength to 'go on'... Experts have already shown that they had it in the part (otherwise they wouldn't have become experts) but are they really thougher than beginners... I don't know.

 

[Lynne]

Very interesting questions, Caffeine.

I've been training in Tang Soo Do just 15 months or so. At my level, green belt, I am considered an "intermediate" student. By the end of November, if I pass my next green belt level (there are three), I will enter into the "advanced" student arena, red belt. Typically, the red belt studies take about 18 months or so. Then, one endeavors to pass the black belt test. The first level of black belt is "Cho Dan." Cho means beginner

The black belts have said this: "The colored belt system is learning your ABC's; black belt is learning to read and write."

I'll be 51 in September. I was 49 when I began Tang Soo Do. It took a lot of courage and mental toughness to begin. I am no athlete but I watched my daughter's classes for nine months and had some inkling of what I was in for. The conditioning exercises would overwhelm many a person. We are talking hundreds of crunches during a class, sometimes several hundred leg raises, often a hundred pushups, running, plyometric jumps, kicking exercises that will make your legs feel like they are going to drop off (you pray for the pain to stop), punching drills in a horse stance (horse stance is a wide squat with the feet pointing straight ahead), and many other exercises I can't think of. Most of these drills and exercises are performed without much of a break so one gets an aerobic as well as an anaerobic workout.

Sometimes people pass out or collapse. It takes a helluva lot of mental strength to go through the pain of martial arts. It does hurt physically. But it's so much fun! Of course part of the payoff is finding out we can do much more than we ever thought we were capable of. Each belt level is a challenge as the material is different and usually a tad more difficult. With each belt comes the mental challenge of learning new material and retaining it.

In our school, the white belt is overwhelmed with not only the physical conditioning but the mental effort to learn two forms (forms are a choreographed sequence of movements based on ancient fighting movements), self-defense wrist grips (two total) and five foot-hand combinations, proper stances (three as I recall), proper fist (making a proper fist is not easy at all), Korean commands must be learned so one will know what the intstructor is telling him/her to do, and so much more. The white belt must learn this material in eight weeks. It's enough to blow your mind if you're not mentally prepared.

Caffeine, I've seen people appear in their new doboks. They've never come back. I can't say whether they attended one or two free trial classes or not. The instructors make it particularly difficult on people trying out so they will know what they are getting themselves into. I can only assume these newbies signed up without the benefit of a trial class. In one case, the student was a teen and collapsed during class. In two other cases, I recall two morbidly obese women. There are some who have stayed with us for awhile and left while still a white belt.

I look at the testing lists. As the progression is higher, the fewer the colored belts listed. At red, there are just a handful. Many drop out at red belt as the material becomes much more difficult. Also, the conditioning accelerates.

I can't say why people do not maintain the spirit. I suppose they may not want to work that hard. They lose focus?

We do, however, have a large number of black belts, including 4 masters (fourth degree black belt), not including our Sa Ba Nim (6th degree). Apparently, we have quite a few who persevere overall.

 

[Cirdan]

(a) Compare "beginners" with "experts". Do scores differ? This is by far the easiest option but it's got its problems. For starters, are the experts among you mentally "tougher". Or, considering the mental and time demands of a martial art, are only the tougher ones left at the end?

Higher ranks are definately on average more able to relax and function under pressure. Some develop these qualities, others had them already. We don`t have scores.

(b) Take beginners, and monitor them over the course of months and years; do they improve mentally?

Some, at least, improve their ability to focus. Actually hard to tell because most beginners quit.

Whichever we do, here's the problem. What is a beginner? A White belt? Someone who's been training regularly for less than three months? Even worse, what's the definition an expert? My guess is that "black belt" is a variable term? Furthermore, can different martial arts possibly be compared? Does this mean than I'll have to pick just the one martial art as they can't be compared? What are people's thoughts? I've love some comments. Thanks in advance.

The Black Belt has a different meaning for every art. Many thinks it shouls show you have a firm grasp of the basics. Beginner and expert are relative terms, a beginner in the arts might seem an expert to the untrained. As someone pointed out we remain beginners for our lives since there is always more to learn. In class students are usually concidered beginners for six months, possibly a year if they train less often.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

When is a beginner not a beginner? Probably when he's dead. I been training for about half of my life I'm still a beginner and I aspire to be a beginner right up till I breath my last. That way I know I'm always going to learn new things and be amazed by those things I learn.

 

[matt.m]

A lot of people in the U.S. calibrate belt color with expertise. In many cases this is not so. IMO a beginner is no longer a beginner when they begin to put techniques and understanding together. A point to where they can begin to show techniques to lower color belts.

Geez, in 96 I was an olympic hopeful in Judo and Greco Wrestling. However I was in my early 20's. I had grown up the son of a hapkido master, master bricklayer, and the greatest human being built around passion for right and humility.

Getting back to my M.A. personal experience. Even though I was a Sgt. in the Marines, multiple time champ in both Judo and Wrestling I always thought it was all about me. I didn't have the mental comprehension to instruct others. I figured, "How can you not understand this concept." I became a personal trainer, now I am a Judo instructor in Moo Sul Kwan. I still think I am a beginner. I like the circle philosophy. New student small circle, instructor a much larger circle. Then a circle double the size for the instructor, each circle diameter reflect knowledge and understanding.

Afterall over half of a martial artist is the adventure of understanding and decency towards others.

 

[bowser666]

This may sound weird but I feel that you are always learning and thus always a beginner. To call oneself a Expert / Master I kind of think is more of a tool to show that someone has greater experience/knowledge of something than another and that something can be learned from them. The "Master" is still learning and the cycle of knowledge never ends.

 

[jks9199]

You're no longer a beginner when you no longer have to ask if you're a beginner.

 

[harlan]

It's been over 4 years now...and every time I'm in the dojo/class...I feel like a beginner.

However, recently teacher ratcheted up our bunkai. In answer to my question why, the reply was 'You're not a beginner anymore.' Yeah for me! LOL!

 

[zDom]

Well, technically speaking, in MSK it is at green belt

White, Yellow, Orange = beginner

Green, Blue = intermediate

Purple, Brown, Red = advanced

(And black = a REAL student of the art )

 

[jkembry]

I can only speak for myself...but I have always felt like a beginner. Although, I have felt this way, I am getting little slivers of what it feels like when things do go right. I hope that I keep on learning and I hope that I will eventually be able to pass what little I know on to others.

 

[KELLYG]

"Well, technically speaking, in MSK it is at green belt

White, Yellow, Orange = beginner

Green, Blue = intermediate

Purple, Brown, Red = advanced

(And black = a REAL student of the art)"

I agree with this post, but will take it further... Sometime during training you think that you have a handle on your art. You also see that there is so much more out there to learn. Then you realize that what you know is only a drop in the bucket. Then you revert back to being a beginner. So in my opinion everyone is always a beginner.

As for mental toughness I think that not everyone has the same level of mental toughness but it can be taught. This is one of the reasons that you have beginners , intermediate, and advanced classes. One of the biggest advantages of being advanced over a beginner is that you have been around and done hard training and hard test and have developed a tolerance to it.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Hi guys, your expert opinions please.

As some of you will know from the Meet and Greet section, I'm an academic psychologist with a keen interest in mental toughness and the benefits it can bring. I'm also keen to see how the martial arts may be able to provide long lasting benefits in this area (more on that in another thread to come). But to ascertain any changes here, I'm going to have to do one of two things:

(a) Compare "beginners" with "experts". Do scores differ? This is by far the easiest option but it's got its problems. For starters, are the experts among you mentally "tougher". Or, considering the mental and time demands of a martial art, are only the tougher ones left at the end?

(b) Take beginners, and monitor them over the course of months and years; do they improve mentally?

Whichever we do, here's the problem. What is a beginner? A White belt? Someone who's been training regularly for less than three months? Even worse, what's the definition an expert? My guess is that "black belt" is a variable term? Furthermore, can different martial arts possibly be compared? Does this mean than I'll have to pick just the one martial art as they can't be compared? What are people's thoughts? I've love some comments. Thanks in advance.

PS. Apologies if this is not in the right section! I'm such a newbie.

The desire to label and categorize is not very useful.

Fighting has little to do with labels.

We can call someone "beginner" or "expert" - what is the point?

He is still the same fighter and still needs to work on the same skills regardless of what we call him.

 

[zDom]

It is really a matter of perspective.

Working with low ranked gup students, I often think to myself "this is SO hard for THEM and second nature to me!"

At that point I feel like an expert


Ten minutes later I can be working advanced techniques and wonder why I still can't do them as well as I want to do them — that is to say, like my instructor does them — and feel like I may never, ever stop feeling like a beginner.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Never

 

[thardey]

It is really a matter of perspective.

Working with low ranked gup students, I often think to myself "this is SO hard for THEM and second nature to me!"

At that point I feel like an expert


Ten minutes later I can be working advanced techniques and wonder why I still can't do them as well as I want to do them — that is to say, like my instructor does them — and feel like I may never, ever stop feeling like a beginner.

That's how I look at it, as well. When I was a white belt, I looked up to the red belts (in our system, that's just below black.) As experts. Now I am a black belt, and to the red belts I am an expert. However, now I consider myself a beginner, and look up to the 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc, as "experts."

But I know that they feel the same way.

To try and give you a helpful answer, though - there is a point when you begin training that is 100% thinking - you have to think about every weight shift, every movement, and every strike. Then there is a point, where your body begins to take over (whether it be "muscle memory" "trained instinct" or "subconscious thought") and there is a war with your logical head. Many people get frustrated and quit at this point. You'll be halfway through a form, without having to think much, and your logical head will try to take over, and you'll blank out, and forget what you are doing.
Or you'll be sparring, and even though you see an obvious opening, you'll freeze up and miss the chance.

Eventually, if you don't quit during this part, you'll get to the point where you don't have that conflict, anymore - everything you do is now "ingrained" - you simply do it, you don't think about it. When you get to this point, you often feel like an "Expert." In my system that is usually about when people begin to qualify for Black Belt.

Then you enter the next phase: You go back, and begin to think about everything logically again, often spurred by trying to teach a beginner. And the whole process starts all over again.