What's the future of Wing Chun?

[yak sao]

Nevertheless, as people age, I find such narrow-minded views increasingly common.

So, I'm a bit more discrete about discussing my interest in WC these days ...and about where I practice. Unfortunately that doesn't do much to "spread the faith".

As I've gotten older I've found the same thing.
I'm reminded of an old Sam Elliot movie, Lifeguard.
In the movie, Elliot plays a man in his late 30's, early 40's who had been a lifeguard on the same beach his whole life. He goes to a high school reunion and when he mentions to someone that he's still a lifeguard they give him that side ways look and "oh that's great".........it's kind of the same response I get from some when they find out I'm still training.

 

[Callen]

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Wing chun traffic has slowed down. But that is good IMO. There is much mismash and junk labelled as wing chun. God wing chunas long as there are some good teachers will remain because wing chun properly taught is the real mcoy of kung fu. My kung fu siblings are not on chat lists for the most part. They keep on learning and developing their skills..Master Fong's classes are doing well. His best students are doing well.
He has not created a chain store system.One goes to Tucson to learn. Some of sigung's other proteges like Lui Ming Fai in HK are doing well.
WSL's best students and TST's best students are doing well. I would not judge wing chun by the waxing or waning of discussion on chat lists..

My apologies for not posting on the forum more often. I mostly read and observe from somewhat of a distance. That said, I have to agree with the statement above. Particularly the part about not judging the future success of Wing Chun based on forums or social media in general. Community is important, but the truest WC practitioners are often very private in their journey. Those who train and learn for their own personal development will be more likely to outlast trends and popular influences. Wing Chun is much bigger than any of us. It will still be here long after we're gone...

 

[yak sao]

My apologies for not posting on the forum more often. I mostly read and observe from somewhat of a distance. That said, I have to agree with the statement above. Particularly the part about not judging the future success of Wing Chun based on forums or social media in general. Community is important, but the truest WC practitioners are often very private in their journey. Those who train and learn for their own personal development will be more likely to outlast trends and popular influences. Wing Chun is much bigger than any of us. It will still be here long after we're gone...

You should post more often

 

[Vajramusti]

My apologies for not posting on the forum more often. I mostly read and observe from somewhat of a distance. That said, I have to agree with the statement above. Particularly the part about not judging the future success of Wing Chun based on forums or social media in general. Community is important, but the truest WC practitioners are often very private in their journey. Those who train and learn for their own personal development will be more likely to outlast trends and popular influences. Wing Chun is much bigger than any of us. It will still be here long after we're gone...

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good post

 

[PiedmontChun]

and where I practice

Another thing. It's not particularly cool. It's not a sport or pastime that adults can talk about with a lot of people outside the MA community. In my experience, PiedmontChun is right. Many adults find such activities peculiar especially compared with more conventional pastimes like tennis, golf and skiing, or activities that are currently in vogue such as the resurgance of interest in yoga.

Things definitely come and go in terms of being fashionable. Someone once asked a bodybuilder (possibly Arnold S., cant remember) why they devoted so much time and effort to bodybuilding; this was way back before it became more mainstream. To paraphrase his response, it was that there was no shortcut to the end result earned, only hard work, so the accomplishment was reward enough and that no one could buy the same result, or take his accomplishment away from him.
The weekends I spend fishing won't amount to anything other than just my own personal relaxation, but the time I invest in WT, or playing my music instruments of choice are skills developed ove time so with that comes some sense of accomplishment. I suppose someone could feel accomplishment at a sub-100 golf game or bowling a perfect bowling game, but it might not be the same linear work-to-reward ratio involved.

I can say it seems like most people in my generation (I'm 32) lack any real skill outside their jobs / education; and even in older generations the concept of 'accomplishment' is relegated mostly to financial / material success, which is a shame.

 

[dlcox]

Things definitely come and go in terms of being fashionable. Someone once asked a bodybuilder (possibly Arnold S., cant remember) why they devoted so much time and effort to bodybuilding; this was way back before it became more mainstream. To paraphrase his response, it was that there was no shortcut to the end result earned, only hard work, so the accomplishment was reward enough and that no one could buy the same result, or take his accomplishment away from him.
The weekends I spend fishing won't amount to anything other than just my own personal relaxation, but the time I invest in WT, or playing my music instruments of choice are skills developed ove time so with that comes some sense of accomplishment. I suppose someone could feel accomplishment at a sub-100 golf game or bowling a perfect bowling game, but it might not be the same linear work-to-reward ratio involved.

I can say it seems like most people in my generation (I'm 32) lack any real skill outside their jobs / education; and even in older generations the concept of 'accomplishment' is relegated mostly to financial / material success, which is a shame.

I practice not for recognition, money or admiration. I practice because I want to. For me it is a personal journey of self fulfillment. What I put into it is what I will get out of it. When I choose to teach it is for the same reasons. Many people start endeavors with aspirations of fame and glory, fall short and fizzle out. Those that continue to strive achieve the goals set forth, and some even manage to change their perspective and priorities through it. Traditional arts will continue on with those that truly care for what they have to offer beyond the stereotypical perceptions.

 

[Jake104]

For my own 2c, it's a matter of ROI. I don't get much of anything out of any of the online discussions I've had, nor do I care to participate much after I learned how often people use multiple fake accounts to push their own agendas. I find the practice distasteful.



I'd say yes, because it doesn't really offer much outside of personal satisfaction. There's no career in it, no outlet for competition, no end game beyond maybe being a sifu if you wanted to.

It's an art you can love, but it certainly ain't gonna love you back.

Not sure what ROI is short for? But I definitely agree with your post Eric. Not much in it other than self gratification oops, I mean satisfaction. Wrong forum haha! Damn big words!

 

[geezer]

Not sure what ROI is short for?

Return On Investment

 

[Vajramusti]

There is no reliable written history of history of wing chun. Opinions abound some more worthy of note than others. I do wing chun because
I have found it to be a very well thought out system of defense and self development. I did not get into wing chun because of movies, stories or Bruce Lee.
Chance and very good luck and living in Tucson when I did- got me started with Augustine Fong's wing chun. I have met my sigung Ho Kam ming
and learned from him too. And I have met several other top students of Master Ho- besides Fong sifu. who was with Ho for a very long time. And Master Ho was with Ip Man longer than anyone.And Ip Man is easily the most knowledgeable 20th century master.

The transmission through the hands is the real history and when wisely analyzed creates a reliable body of knowledge.

The Chan wah shun wing chun that IM learned does not explain the refinements of structure and footwork of IM- I test it empirically rather than just taking him at his word- though that also is worthy of respect.

IM's wing chun is far different from YKS or his elder bro who went to Vietnam, and different from gu lo and has outgrown the crane and snake roots.

IM tested his wing chun, many of Master Ho's students have actually fought, Master Fong has fought and I have had my own tests-including with non wing chun folks.And I have rolled with other wing chun master including Wong Shon Leung, Tsui tsong tin,Victor Kan and Hawkins Cheung

I do respect other well developed systems and people who practice them.

 

[Kwan Sau]

I do wing chun because I have found it to be a very well thought out system of defense and self development.

I did not get into wing chun because of movies, stories or Bruce Lee.

The transmission through the hands is the real history and when wisely analyzed creates a reliable body of knowledge.

I agree. Well stated Joy. Especially about the transmission through the hands.

 

[Vajramusti]

I agree. Well stated Joy. Especially about the transmission through the hands.

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Thx Kwan Sao

 

[Danny T]

The thing about all the martial arts is the individual.
It's not about who did it first or prior to you it is what is your skill and ability.
It's not about who you learned from it is about what you are able to do with what you learned.
Do you have skills that only work vs certain styles or in a particular environment? Do you have the skills and knowledge that will allow you to continue to learn and become better once your instructor is no longer available to you. Do you have the abilities to continue to learn as you have changed, as age and/or physical attributes change? Does your knowledge allow you to adapt to differing situations? There is no 'right' or 'wrong' there is only the consequence. Problem lies with the one who doesn't acknowledge the consequence or accept that they may have to change what was perceived as being good.

 

[ShotoNoob]

....
From what I've experienced it is the strict adherence to a training method as application and a lack understanding of how to freely apply what one has learned in numerous situations and environments. I find when training with many from other organizations they are stuck in attempting to apply a move or position from the forms or from a drill in a fight situation without understanding the different dynamics. So people say WC people can't fight, WC sucks and it is true. Many WC people can't apply what they have.

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Yet this is precisely the case with the poor performance of traditional karates, the TMAs in general.... I think the real problem is not the lack of interest in WC, but that to master WC to a level of proficiency is extremely challenging....
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Beyond the physical conditioning and the basic understanding of the physical techniques, there is a whole mental foundation that must be learned & developed. With WC, this foundation is much harder to attain, the sophistication required very high, compared to the style of traditional karate I practice.
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Part of this mental foundation is learning how to apply the techniques, not just take a page from the WC textbook & paste it onto a situation. My successful track record in competitions is partly because my opponents do just that, the latter. No matter how physically good one's technique is, the inability to synthesize is lacking in a majority of the karate opponents I face.

 

[Vajramusti]

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Yet this is precisely the case with the poor performance of traditional karates, the TMAs in general.... I think the real problem is not the lack of interest in WC, but that to master WC to a level of proficiency is extremely challenging....
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Beyond the physical conditioning and the basic understanding of the physical techniques, there is a whole mental foundation that must be learned & developed. With WC, this foundation is much harder to attain, the sophistication required very high, compared to the style of traditional karate I practice.
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Part of this mental foundation is learning how to apply the techniques, not just take a page from the WC textbook & paste it onto a situation. My successful track record in competitions is partly because my opponents do just that, the latter. No matter how physically good one's technique is, the inability to synthesize is lacking in a majority of the karate opponents I face.

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Good post IMO. Truly good wing chun peope IMO are few and far between. Many people jump from one stew bowl to another. A friend of mine who I used to work out and spar with was a direct student of Dr Otsuka of wado ryu. He knew how to apply better than most wado ryu [rople that I have see. Learning good wing chun and applying it is indeed challenging. That challenge keeps me climbing the wing chun mountain.

 

[ShotoNoob]

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Good post IMO. Truly good wing chun peope IMO are few and far between. Many people jump from one stew bowl to another. A friend of mine who I used to work out and spar with was a direct student of Dr Otsuka of wado ryu. He knew how to apply better than most wado ryu [rople that I have see. Learning good wing chun and applying it is indeed challenging. That challenge keeps me climbing the wing chun mountain.

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The whole concept of Wing Chun is developing a kind of latent power within, from inside. Then applying that power in a highly articulate fashion from the mind. This is very sophisticated, very sophisticated traditional martial arts.
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You see the YT vids pointing out the weaknesses in Wing Chun. Virtually all these vids have for one, no concept of internal power. Secondly, they have no concept of the mental dimension of traditional martial arts. These vids propose a physical contest as the sole dimension, with sneaky-clever tactics as the 'mental' side.
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These vids do point out the formidable attacks that boxing opponents can launch, etc. The design of WC is more than sufficient to handle such. HOW?
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The YT critiques of WC come up with all sorts of supposed faults based on their PHYSICAL understanding of WC. The same criticisms are launched against traditional karate's. Two I've seen say (1) the Wing Chun guard of outstretched arms can't stop a boxer from striking around the guard and into the face; (2) Wing Chun guard doesn't protect when 'closing the distance,' WC itself has no strategy for closing-the-distance.
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Both of these FAULTS, presume that the WC practitioner is static, the guard is held static; or that the guard moves to commit a block and stays commit-ed. Why I like traditional karate is that from day one, you learn to move from the guard into technique. Then from that technique into another technique. There is nothing 'static' or stop-committed about traditional karate.
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IMHO, WC does what traditional karate does ever better. The concept of holding your guard hard static while a boxer strikes around that guard is completely incompetent karate, and absolutely preposterous in WC. The concept of committing to a block then freezing or failing to think, focus on the next move, the next technique--is generally incompetent by traditional karate, again absolutely preposterous in WC.
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The whole closing-the-distance stratagem so constantly discussed in MMA as 'problematic' is completely silly from a TMA standpoint. Simply one or both approach into range where there is physical danger. You must be prepared to respond to the aggression of your opponent.
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The reason MMA has such big problem with closing-the-distance is that MMA competitors, the sport fighting group as a whole, isn't really prepared to fend off the assailant. They really aren't prepared to defend against the attack. They really don't know how to proceed against unplanned aggression. Everything is a reaction, hoping your's is better, hoping they get out of the way, then you miss or get fooled and your reactions fail to keep pace. This is the opposite of WC's high-level principles.

 

[Vajramusti]

Another sensible post.

 

[ShotoNoob]

MY DEFEAT OF THE KICKBOXER OPPONENT @ DOJO:
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I demonstrated the traditional karate [TMA] principles of sequential movement, taught in all kata beginning with Taikyoku set. Of course all the other foundational karate skills in the traditional curriculum were behind this.
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On KB's feint of high round kicks meant to intimidate. The response to feints is the mental discipline to distinguish the feint from an imminently harmful technique. There's no need to move until the assailant's technique is certain to be harmful. This ability is discussed @ the 'mental clarity' thread.
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KICKBOXER opponent then steps forward, throws Right Cross past my outstretched Left guard hand & into my face. Just like the YT videos claiming WC guard is ineffective. RESPONSE: As KB opponent steps in & punches, I STEP IN &BLOCK with Rear (Right) guard hand. Left Guard hand pulled to chamber.
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Boxer opponents say my Left hand low @ chamber, Right Guard hand now committed in block across my body against his Straight Right Cross--I'm committed and vulnerable to his Left to my face. If I'm a static, 1-dimensional karate fighter, they would be right. Traditional karate is anything but static or 1-dimensional.
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The truth is that the KB's strong Right Cross has left him exposed. My Right Guard hand is perfectly positioned to capitalize on that exposure. Moreover, my Right Guard Hand is perfectly positioned to defend his potential Follow-on Left, whether it was throw in immediate combo, or as a dedicated 1-2 step punch combo. The key is to have the 'mental clarity' to apply your kihon karate technique.
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WC employs the same mental dynamic as traditional karate, yet on a much higher level of mental clarity & technique, if you will. WC has got to be one of the most dynamic striking arts of all time.
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These critics of WC couldn't get traditional karate right. How do they figure they can even begin to fathom WC?

 

[ShotoNoob]

WHAT DO GUARD HANDS DO IN TRADITIONAL KARATE / WC?
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This whole notion of traditional karate ineffective against good boxers is nonsense. These boxers simply punch through the 'openings' in the outstretched guard. I agree that the outstretched karate guard has 'openings.'
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Because the arm is not a metal shield like in Roman days, there has to be openings. We all have openings in any guard. The purpose of the traditional karate guard is not as an automatic shield, the purpose is to put the hands in a position to launch effective technique--both offensive & defensive. Hence, the purpose of the guard is to change as the opponent changes.
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In my illustration above, the outstretched Left guard hand stays static on the KB's feinting maneuver. There's no need to change since there is no danger. Once danger becomes apparent from the speeding Right Cross, then the guard hands move. I respond by bringing the outstretched Left Guard Hand back to chamber, the Right Guard Hand moves ahead to Block. Essentially the general postilion of the guard hands SWITCH upon the incoming punch.
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The shield is not in the form of the guard, at least not the majority. The shield is in the ability to shift, move the arms & hands to create a shield comprised of technique in RESPONSE to the assault. The underlying driver of this ability is strong MENTAL DISCIPLINE. Extend this karate example to the dynamic hands of WC and the position that the WC guard is full of holes against the boxer--is shown completely misunderstood, misstated & misapplied.

 

[r'n'r]

I can talk about other things on forums: strength training, nutrition,...

But martial arts, I think, are best discussed in person, hands on.

 

[antaeus]

There has been quite a proliferation of blogs and websites.

When I started there were only a few - now there a more than I can count.

And many forum discussions are not that informative and many devolve into ***** sessions or MA vs TMA arguments. Not here necessarily, but in forums in general. It is too bad. Also, I think that there is so much information out there (books, videos, websites) that these are satisfying the impulse.

Our school has been growing quite a bit (of course, this is going from 4 or 5 to 10 to 15!).