What's a good range for instructors to charge for BB?

IcemanSK

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We all seem to have the same reaction when we here of $1000 being charged for 1st Dan (or rather someone paying a high price for a dan rank) but what is a good reasonable range for a student to be charged?

For reference, Miles listed what the Kukkiwon charges instructors for each rank: FTR, Kukkiwon charges $70 for 1st dan, $90 for 2nd dan, $120 for 3rd dan, $150 for 4th dan, $300 for 5th dan, $350 for 6th dan, and $450 for 7th dan.

We all know there are costs associated with putting on a BB test, & an instructor has to make a living. So, there has to be some mark up. (And I'm NOT asking for instructors to share what they charge: I'm just asking "what's an acceptable price range to charge a student for a 1st Dan?")

*What percentage "should" it go up for each dan after?

I don't mean to single anyone out, but I don't know if Ch'ang Hon stylists have the same "given" charge by their orgs. Anyone can chime in. Use these figures as your cost before considering other costs.
 

LuckyKBoxer

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This is like asking what is a good range for a car dealership to charge for a car.

There are simply too many variables to deal with.

Instead of giving you a direct answer, I think its more important to get you thinking about a few things.

1st. Whats your overall costs involved?

2nd. What do you need or want to get from the test?

3rd. What are you providing in regards to value for the student?

4th. How can the test help your future business decisions, and how does different costs effect that?

You can go on and on. The key is to be able to show value in what you are doing for the price.
If you show enough value you can get almost any price for the test.
 

NPTKD

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1st $370.00 includes KKW Dan
2nd $470.00 includes KKW Dan
3rd $570.00 includes KKW Dan
4th 670.00 includes KKW Dan


Now I know that alot of instructor's charge alot more. Some even charge more for KKW. They give them a school cert, then charge extra for KKW. That is what my instructor did.

I paid $1500.00 for fifth dan ( school cert) Only to turn around and convert it over to AAU then to USAT then finally to KKW.

I feel my prices are in line. It is alot less then I myself paid!
 

NPTKD

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But...... witht hat said, here is the buisness side of it.

Let me tell you "Free is never Free enough"& " cheap is never cheap enough"

With all the good intentions that an instructor my have, you need to understand that you have to make a living. You worked very hard to get to the level that you are at. You are the professional.And with that said... People do not mind paying a little more for quality.. yea I know some of you old school people will not like this but it is true.. If you charged $70.00 or even $100.00 for your BB test would how big of a deal would that really be. People spend that much on a dinner out for three now days. Now understand I over provide on everything... I don't cut corners. But I do know what I worth. I don't run a club, I run a professional TKD school. I keep up to date on my training and business practices.
 

dancingalone

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Hypothetically, what does the markup on a BB test cover? Paying some panel judges to come for the test? OK. Food and drinks for the spectators? OK. Perhaps utilities for the lighting and maybe air conditioning? OK. Some money to cover your instructor's time? Fine.

I'd be OK with all of that, but I would want to understand where the money is going. If your instructor is simply going to pocket a cool grand or more for his trouble, I'd be less inclined to go along with it.
 

Jphtkd

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Can anybody really put a number to it? The rank is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. It means something different to each of us. As made painfully obvious in other threads, a Kukkiwon certificate means nothing to a lot of people. To others, it means a great deal. If someone feels strongly enough about it to pay $3000 for a first dan, who am I to tell them they are wrong?

Just to keep on topic of the thread:

I charge $350 for KKW 1st dan, that includes the cert., a new black collar dobok, embroidered belt, and boards for testing.
 

NPTKD

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Hypothetically, what does the markup on a BB test cover? Paying some panel judges to come for the test? OK. Food and drinks for the spectators? OK. Perhaps utilities for the lighting and maybe air conditioning? OK. Some money to cover your instructor's time? Fine.

I'd be OK with all of that, but I would want to understand where the money is going. If your instructor is simply going to pocket a cool grand or more for his trouble, I'd be less inclined to go along with it.


Why?
When you go see the the doctor do go and look for the cheapest doctor you can find?

Everything is up front, that is why I have no problem posting it. If you just came in I would tell you the same. If you asked me where or how does the price break down I would tell you the following.

Dear Sir,
I have been a student in the art that you have choosen to persue for 20 plus years and I have made it my lifes perfession. I do believe that some instructor are better then others and for that reason My prices are on average higher. The same as what a community collage and an Ivey league collage would differ. I invite you to seek out schools in our area and view classes and compair. My fees are ..........

I do have a problem with instructors not being up front with prices, but as far as given you a break down on where your test fees go..... Do you ask where your monthy tution payment goes? No, you agree to pay it or you don't. If you do you train there... If you don't you move on.
 

dancingalone

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Why?
When you go see the the doctor do go and look for the cheapest doctor you can find?

Well as an insured person in the US, I pay a co-payment and the insurance picks up the rest when I visit a doctor. I could be going to a Nobel Prize winning doctor (or not), and the fee would be the same regardless. Bad analogy.

Everything is up front, that is why I have no problem posting it. If you just came in I would tell you the same. If you asked me where or how does the price break down I would tell you the following.

Dear Sir,
I have been a student in the art that you have choosen to persue for 20 plus years and I have made it my lifes perfession. I do believe that some instructor are better then others and for that reason My prices are on average higher. The same as what a community collage and an Ivey league collage would differ. I invite you to seek out schools in our area and view classes and compair. My fees are ..........

I do have a problem with instructors not being up front with prices, but as far as given you a break down on where your test fees go..... Do you ask where your monthy tution payment goes? No, you agree to pay it or you don't. If you do you train there... If you don't you move on.

My post really wasn't aimed at you since you post your prices and they're not out-of-whack compared to the KKW rates. I'm really questioning more someone who would charge $1500 for a chodan test. In that case, you bet I want to know if this is just pure profit for the instructor, so I can gauge for myself whether the instructor is worth the premium or not.

I don't agree by the way that higher prices equate to higher quality. If the instructor is actually a good one and he reinvests the higher tuition back into facilities and other resources like paid staff, etc, it can be a good value worth considering. But higher prices charged by Joe McDojo is just you sending Joe's kids to college or buying Joe a nice home. In fact, just by my anecdotal experience, all the better martial artists I've trained with have been on the lower side. Someone else may find differently.
 

Earl Weiss

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Hypothetically, what does the markup on a BB test cover? Paying some panel judges to come for the test? OK. Food and drinks for the spectators? OK. Perhaps utilities for the lighting and maybe air conditioning? OK. Some money to cover your instructor's time? Fine.

I'd be OK with all of that, but I would want to understand where the money is going. If your instructor is simply going to pocket a cool grand or more for his trouble, I'd be less inclined to go along with it.


I will echo a prior sentiment. As long as you know the charge up front there should not be any issues. The problem comes when a student invests years to reach BB and SURPRISE they have to pay $1000.00 or whatever.

As far as knowing where the # goes, who else do you pay for ervices and get to have them explain where $ goes?

As someone said there are many variables. Test fees , like tuition fees cover many things which will vary greatly depending on program and location. These (off the top of my head) could include:
Rent / mortgage
Real Estae taxes
Insurance.
electricity, Natural gas, water
Toilet paper, soap, cleaning supplies, scavenger
Equipment repair and replacement.
National and International Assoc. Costs and Charges
Teacher salaries
Telephone, postage, copying, advertising, office supplies.
Some may include Uniforms and Belts.
Profit for school owners.

Some may have low tuition costs and charge mor for tests. Some may charge more for tuition to cover costs and then charge less for tests.
 

NPTKD

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When you and your attacker are alone in that dark ally, I don't think you will say " I glad that I went with the cheaper guy to learn self defense".
 

dancingalone

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When you and your attacker are alone in that dark ally, I don't think you will say " I glad that I went with the cheaper guy to learn self defense".

You know perfectly well that's not what I said. C'mon, NPTKD, show some intellectual honesty. If you disagree with me, that's fine. We're all just talking opinions anyway. No reason to fire silly barbs that don't apply even to the discussion at hand.
 

dancingalone

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As far as knowing where the # goes, who else do you pay for ervices and get to have them explain where $ goes?

Since NPTKD brought up the medical field, I'll use them as an example. Every time I get some tests run or go to the hospital for an emergency, my insurance company and I get a complete breakdown of what procedure was performed and how much it cost. Same deal when you get your car serviced.

It seems to me that some who might run for-profit martial arts schools want to have their cake and eat it too. The unquestioning disciple/master relationship really only works only in a less modern society where costs and alternatives are NOT transparent to every consumer. If you open your doors and charge fees to train the general public, it seems reasonable for that same general public to want some answers about where exactly his money is going.

If my mechanic wants to charge me $2000 bucks to change a belt, I want to know why it's so expensive. He may have entirely valid reasons for doing so, but I need the information to make educated decisions myself. It's not like I am hypothetically demanding every studio post their exact cost breakdown with marginal profit figures. A simple conversation lasting a few seconds will likely do the trick: "Well, I'm bringing in 2 other masters to judge and we have to pay for their hotel and food." Easy.
 

dortiz

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Personally I have a huge problem with the test fees paying for the variables. I would rather pay more monthly and know that fee supports the school than to have tests and other special classes make up those costs. Its confusing and sends an odd message.
And NPTKD I think you are making a confusing argument, sorry but fees do not equate quality in the MAs. You can find a YMCA program run by a really great Grand Master that smokes a $200 a month Mcdojo.
There are plenty of small clubs and schools with really great teachers that have enough students to charge very reasonable fees. Its too big an area to boil down to cost equals better instruction.
As for the fees, I get a nice Addidas Uniform $100. A really Nice Enshin belt $100, Framing for the Certificate $75 and cost of test itself Boards, time food etc $ 100. Thats $375 right there. Add the Kukkiwon fee if going that route and you have real defined cost that have value.

Dave O.
 

Aikikitty

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When you and your attacker are alone in that dark ally, I don't think you will say " I glad that I went with the cheaper guy to learn self defense".

Price doesn't always equal quality. There are excellent teachers who cost more to train with them and there are just the same excellent teachers who charge nothing. The $35 a month I pay for classes only goes to school owner (who lets us use his dojang to train) help pay the rent. My sensei has never seen a dime from teaching or testing. At the moment we don't belong to an association (used to) and I didn't have to pay a cent for shodan testing or my black belt (belt was a gift from everyone). Of course, I don't have an official certificate stating my rank and I see the value in TKD to have a paper saying your rank is universal wherever you go, but how much does ink and paper cost anyway? I guess I just don't understand that.

I don't practice TKD, but reading this thread makes me wonder if I could even afford it (or to test anyway) and I know many of you don't even run Mcdojos, but have good quality schools. I realize not everyone is expensive. I guess cost is relative and it depends where you are, who you find to train with, what you're used to, etc.

Robyn :asian:
 

terryl965

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My BB test is this $250.00 and that covers boards cost of $35.00, new belt cost $45.00, new uniform cost $90.00 and a certificate that I have made at the print shop and framed for another $75.00 that equals $235.00 and if they want a KKW I tell them it will be $70.00 plus what the person gets fo sending it in which is around $150.00. Alot of my students do not want the KKW some do, for those that is the fee and they know this upp front. So oput of the $250.00 I send around $235.00 so I am making $15.00 and then alot of them will take me and a few to dinner but that is there choice it is not mandatory.
 

NPTKD

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You know perfectly well that's not what I said. C'mon, NPTKD, show some intellectual honesty. If you disagree with me, that's fine. We're all just talking opinions anyway. No reason to fire silly barbs that don't apply even to the discussion at hand.


IT WAS A JOKE! RELAX......
My point is that I don't hide my fees, But on the other hand I do not feel the need to explain my cost to that extent ether.

As far as clubs go, I don't have a problem with them, I do feel that some have an attitude that because I a club I am some how better and more honiest then a professional full time school. I have to provide better service then a club , because my out lay is a whole lot more and I have a lot more riding on it.
 

dancingalone

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IT WAS A JOKE! RELAX......
My point is that I don't hide my fees, But on the other hand I do not feel the need to explain my cost to that extent ether.

OK. I definitely didn't read your comment as a joke, but no worries. As for not explaining your costs, that's certainly your right. Consumers will make their choices accordingly. I'm sure there are people may not even care what you charge. The Gracies from BJJ are a good example. They charge high fees, but they can get them because they offer high perceived value to those training at their school.

As far as clubs go, I don't have a problem with them, I do feel that some have an attitude that because I a club I am some how better and more honiest then a professional full time school. I have to provide better service then a club , because my out lay is a whole lot more and I have a lot more riding on it.
Yup. I mentioned above that it may be worth it to train at a costlier school if the owner offers more amenities and good instruction. That said, if one has a great offering, despite costing more, where's the problem in disclosing that, yes, a certain profit margin is built into the belt fee? Students understand that people, TKD teachers included, need to eat.
 

NPTKD

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My BB test is this $250.00 and that covers boards cost of $35.00, new belt cost $45.00, new uniform cost $90.00 and a certificate that I have made at the print shop and framed for another $75.00 that equals $235.00 and if they want a KKW I tell them it will be $70.00 plus what the person gets fo sending it in which is around $150.00. Alot of my students do not want the KKW some do, for those that is the fee and they know this upp front. So oput of the $250.00 I send around $235.00 so I am making $15.00 and then alot of them will take me and a few to dinner but that is there choice it is not mandatory.

Please don't take this the wrong way.... But lets break those prices down.

$35.00 Boards: 1 inch pine 12 ft board for home depot around $14.00 cut to 10 x 10 or 8X8 makes around 14 boards. So you charge $2.50 per board. How many of those 14 boards do you use at a BB test?

$45.00 New Belt: The belt runs around $2.00 to $10.00 add maybe $20.00 for the same on it and shipping. So you make around $15.00 on the belt.

$90.00 New uniform: Adidas uniform ( high end) $45.00 whole sale. Low end uniform $12.50 and $2.00 to $5.00 for screen printing, you make around $40.00 on the adidas and $72.00 on the low end.

$75.00 Dan cert: Print shop fees, I use to make these at staples for around $5.00 now I do not know how much a print shop would charge but lets say $25.00 ( high end) Frame may be $25.00 depending on the size of the cert. You could be making upward of $50.00


The price of taking the risk of opening your own school, signing a lease, ordering the unifroms, belts,sparring gear,school euipment,mats,advertising,mirriors and frankly HAVING THE BALLS TO PUT IT ALL ON THE LINE instead of hiding behind the YMCA.
PRICELESS!

So I take my hat off to you sir!
 

NPTKD

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As a school owner... let me tell you a story.

When I first opened I went around and found out how much the five schools in my area were charging for class monthly and for BB testing.
First all of them wouldn't even give me a price for classes until I took one (build value in the price) that I understood,but didn't like. I then asked how much for BB testing. I was told that that information was only given out once you became a student. I then asked how much for gup testing and was told the same. Keep in mind I was trying to set my prices. I already knew from my master how much these prices were, nut need them for my Area. So I came up with $65.00 per month for unlimited classes. that was second to the last on the price scale for my area. Well after two years I could never break 50 students. I raised my prices to $75.00 still with unlimited classes and hit around 75 students. Four years later I took my prices to $99.00 per month for 3 classes per week and broke 150 students 6 months later. I have never dropped below 130 since.

With that said I busted my *** and did and still do teach everyone of my six classes per day ( mon - fri) and three on Saturday.

Price is a funny thing, people do think of price with value. But you have to give value if you charge more. Also this may sound bad but some time price keep people whom you would rather not have in your school out. The people that are not really serious about training or the problem makers and the parent that uses your school as a day care. (limited days you can attend). And when people pay more I feel that they take their training more seriously and commit to training longer.
 

Manny

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The price of the examn for a second dand black belt in my dojan is about $400.00 american dollars and include only the test and the certificate of my organiacion, this does not include KUKIWON certification.

I will have to go Mexico City to do my examination so ad to the $400.00 dollars of the test, the bus,acomodation and meals and we are talking about $150.00 american dollars more.

So we are talking about $650.00 american dollars plus a brand new Mooto or Adidas dobok if sambunim wants all his students in a new dobok.

Manny
 
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