What was Wing Chun designed for?

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Martial D

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I think I have given details, too, though sure, I have not written up a fighting manual.

What would you like to know?



I haven't asked anyone to just believe me. I'm only saying what I know, and telling people to go experience it if interested.

If nothing is nearby and it is not within one's means to travel, then they will just have to make peace with the fact that they won't be able to learn it, can remain agnostic about it, and that's ultimately not going to affect them.

If I were in that situation, I would be focusing on whatever practical style is available near me and not worrying about something I have no chance of learning anyway.
So no video evidence then. If there are many schools, and no videos of live sparring, I am left with one of two conclusions. Either you are globally forbidden from doing so, or no live sparring is happening.
 

DanT

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Cross training in a different style provides you with a different set of skills. You don't mix the training and start doing a double leg or hip throw in Chi Sao for example. You keep the training separate except for sparring.

Filling the gaps means mixing styles when you train them.

It's like playing soccer and then playing baseball. They have skills that overlap, but you don't start wearing a baseball glove to soccer practice.
 

LFJ

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So no video evidence then. If there are many schools, and no videos of live sparring, I am left with one of two conclusions. Either you are globally forbidden from doing so, or no live sparring is happening.

It is true most groups do not make many things public, including sparring.
It is their right to publicize their VT to the extent of their choosing.

Doesn't matter what people not present think.
Many will go and train. Many will not go, and not know.

The thing is, the reality and efficacy of what is being trained is not at all contingent upon whether or not someone online has seen videos of it and/or approves.

That said, there are some sparring clips on this channel and that channel.
 
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KPM

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.....because this basic and essential part of standup fighting is entirely missing from some WC, so it needs to be gap-filled.


.

Again, if you think your version of Wing Chun has a "long range game" as good as Boxing's and better than everyone else's Wing Chun, then please show us!!
 

LFJ

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Again, if you think your version of Wing Chun is a "long range game" as good as Boxing's and better than everyone else's Wing Chun, then please show us!!

It's not the same as Western Boxing, and of course depends on the fighter.

Can't be "better" than something that doesn't exist, though.

I'm sorry, if you are unwilling to travel, you will just have to live without.
 
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KPM

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It's not the same as Western Boxing, and of course depends on the fighter.

Can't be "better" than something that doesn't exist, though.

I'm sorry, if you are unwilling to travel, you will just have to live without.

I have no problem with that. But if you are going to continue to say you do something that other Wing Chun people don't and make claims for your version of Wing Chun.....yet remain unable to provide evidence that any of it is true....then maybe you need to tone down your rhetoric just a bit and try not to come across all smug and superior to everyone else.
 

LFJ

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I have no problem with that. But if you are going to continue to say you do something that other Wing Chun people don't and make claims for your version of Wing Chun.....yet remain unable to provide evidence that any of it is true....then maybe you need to tone down your rhetoric just a bit and try not to come across all smug and superior to everyone else.

I don't believe I have.

I've talked about the system I train, which is not as deficient as you'd suggest in your uninformed generalization.

You can disbelieve if you wish. I don't mind. But, I am allowed to describe what I train.
If someone wants to see it, they can go see it. If they can't or couldn't be bothered, then......
 

Nobody Important

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Cross training in a different style provides you with a different set of skills. You don't mix the training and start doing a double leg or hip throw in Chi Sao for example.

Why? That logic doesn't make any sense, the entire purpose for seeking out new methods, tactics or strategies is to incorporate to fill a deficiency or improve upon an existing method. The entire premise is to make the new addition cohesive with the existing one, and improve the overall method making it more utilitarian. Especially with a method like Chi Sau, that is essentially nothing more than a fancy version of pummeling. Understanding how other, similar methods are used and deployed allows us to enhance our understanding of the strengths and weaknesses other methods and what we can do to improve ours.

You keep the training separate except for sparring.Filling the gaps means mixing styles when you train them.

Again, why? Why train one way and fight another, when what you're looking for is cohesion. "Gap Filling" and "Cross Training" are nothing more than two phrases that describe the same thing with a slightly different emphasis on the semantics of what attributes are being augmented. They are both terms used to describe the aspect of "Mixing", one simply has a negative connotation associated with it, but make no mistake, there are the same thing.
 

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So no video evidence then. If there are many schools, and no videos of live sparring, I am left with one of two conclusions. Either you are globally forbidden from doing so, or no live sparring is happening.

I'm forced to agree. There might be many who don't put such things out on video, and that I could understand. The idea that no one is, doesn't make sense. The only real conclusion is that: a) no one is validating the system; or, b) people have tried to do so and it hasn't gone well.
 
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KPM

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I'm forced to agree. There might be many who don't put such things out on video, and that I could understand. The idea that no one is, doesn't make sense. The only real conclusion is that: a) no one is validating the system; or, b) people have tried to do so and it hasn't gone well.

Most WSLVT guys that I know of have no problem "mixing it up." So I do think they work on "validating the system." But likely this is done almost entirely against partners also doing Wing Chun, based on the videos that they do actually post. My suspicion is that they don't do any better in sparring with non-Wing Chun guys than any other Wing Chun lineage. But they don't want anyone to really see that, because then it would affect the "aire of superiority" that so many of them like to maintain on these forums. And to prove my point, just sit back and watch the responses this will get from the resident WSLVT expert! ;)
 

Martial D

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It is true most groups do not make many things public, including sparring.
It is their right to publicize their VT to the extent of their choosing.

Doesn't matter what people not present think.
Many will go and train. Many will not go, and not know.

The thing is, the reality and efficacy of what is being trained is not at all contingent upon whether or not someone online has seen videos of it and/or approves.

That said, there are some sparring clips on this channel and that channel.
Thanks for the links.

I'm a little confused though. While this channel didn't have much but light sparring/drilling that channel did.

Lots of wb and jui jitsu mixed in with what the guys on that channel are doing. Looks good but there is definitely stand up cross training (gap filling?)happening here.
 
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Danny T

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It is true most groups do not make many things public, including sparring.
It is their right to publicize their VT to the extent of their choosing.

Doesn't matter what people not present think.
Many will go and train. Many will not go, and not know.

The thing is, the reality and efficacy of what is being trained is not at all contingent upon whether or not someone online has seen videos of it and/or approves.

That said, there are some sparring clips on this channel and that channel.
Interesting...can't say I see anything as sparring. Sparring like drills and no real difference in what we do but for having some real boxers, muay thai, and mma fighters feeding the pads and attacking as a boxer, muay thai fighter, and mma fighter would as well as doing some sparring with us.
 
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geezer

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...I'm a little confused though. While this channel didn't have much but light sparring/drilling that channel did. Lots of wb and jui jitsu mixed in with what the guys on that channel are doing. Looks good but there is definitely stand up cross training (gap filling?)happening here.

Exactly my response.

This Chanel
(Michael Kurth's group) showed nothing but classical VT vs VT drilling ...not much there to show a WSLVT long range game, or how it would be applied in free-sparring against a boxer or anyone else.

That Channel
(Sean Wood's VT Lille group) showed a lot more. The elbow-low punching, the aggressive advancing steps, the forward pressure were all straight-up VT with a strong WSL flavor, but there was so much else worked in too ...some boxing hands (the "kung-fu fighting" clip at 1:13), use of what we call the "comb your hair" cover against hooks, as well as seamless transitions from punching to clinch-work, throws, ground fighting and submissions. Saw the same thing happening in a lot of the other videos, such as "VT Lille 15".

While Sean's group is obviously sticking with traditional VT/WC more closely than guys like Alan Orr, these guys are certainly pulling in a lot of outside stuff and moving the art forward. I don't know if you'd call it "filling the gap" or what. But it definitely looks more like an argument in support of what KPM is talking about than LFJ's "WSLVT is a complete system and needs nothing else" position. ;)

Honestly, it looks like a great club. :)
 

geezer

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I'm sorry, if you are unwilling to travel, you will just have to live without.

OK then, if a person were willing to travel 1,000, heck maybe even 2,000 miles ...to see good WSLVT who would you recommend visiting in the USA, where so many of us live? Somebody other than Kevin Gledhill, please!
 

drop bear

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Cross training in a different style provides you with a different set of skills. You don't mix the training and start doing a double leg or hip throw in Chi Sao for example. You keep the training separate except for sparring.

Filling the gaps means mixing styles when you train them.

It's like playing soccer and then playing baseball. They have skills that overlap, but you don't start wearing a baseball glove to soccer practice.

You probably should. If you add striking to chi sau. No reason you couldn't add takedowns.

Even Thai style clinch work could be gap filled
 

geezer

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You probably should. If you add striking to chi sau. No reason you couldn't add takedowns.
Even Thai style clinch work could be gap filled

Assuming you want to keep WC/VT as your striking core, some things would definitely mix in better than others. Clinchwork and takedowns allowing a seamless transition to grappling should work in very well. By contrast, a very different striking art with a different structure and method of power generation would be more problematic.
 
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KPM

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Assuming you want to keep WC/VT as your striking core, some things would definitely mix in better than others. Clinchwork and takedowns allowing a seamless transition to grappling should work in very well. By contrast, a very different striking art with a different structure and method of power generation would be more problematic.

Gap-filling? Or just good integration of different skills sets?

 

DanT

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Why? That logic doesn't make any sense, the entire purpose for seeking out new methods, tactics or strategies is to incorporate to fill a deficiency or improve upon an existing method. The entire premise is to make the new addition cohesive with the existing one, and improve the overall method making it more utilitarian. Especially with a method like Chi Sau, that is essentially nothing more than a fancy version of pummeling. Understanding how other, similar methods are used and deployed allows us to enhance our understanding of the strengths and weaknesses other methods and what we can do to improve ours.



Again, why? Why train one way and fight another, when what you're looking for is cohesion. "Gap Filling" and "Cross Training" are nothing more than two phrases that describe the same thing with a slightly different emphasis on the semantics of what attributes are being augmented. They are both terms used to describe the aspect of "Mixing", one simply has a negative connotation associated with it, but make no mistake, there are the same thing.
Because there is no diffeciency. The style is complete, it works on its own, I don't need to do a Shaolin movement to make up for my shity wing chun, because my wing chun is excellent, and my Shaolin is excellent. I don't have any gaps to be filled. I train the system, I believe in the system. They work, I don't need to gap fill because I have trained diligently.
Chi Sao is not "pummelling", if that's how you do it then great, but you're not doing it for the same purpose that I am then.
 

DanT

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You probably should. If you add striking to chi sau. No reason you couldn't add takedowns.

Even Thai style clinch work could be gap filled
I don't need to add that to Chi Sao because it's not the purpose of my Chi Sao. My Chi Sao is to develop sensitivity and reaction, as well as to practice pining and trapping. If I do a double leg I'm not working on those things. If I want to work on a double leg, then I'll do it in a platform that allows for that.
 
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