What warrants banishment/Red flags instructors look for

[Anarax]

I've been thinking on what some of the red flags would be for me to not train someone or what would warrant banishment from class. I've only seen a handful of people banned or excommunicated in my lifetime.

What have been some of your experiences with this matter as an instructor or student?

What are some of the red flags you look for or criteria you have for students?

How "picky" do you think you are as an instructor?

 

[drop bear]

As a student I am picky. Because I can be.

I don't want to put up with feeling like crap for good instruction. And with the amount of good instruction out there I don't have to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've been thinking on what some of the red flags would be for me to not train someone or what would warrant banishment from class. I've only seen a handful of people banned or excommunicated in my lifetime.

What have been some of your experiences with this matter as an instructor or student?

What are some of the red flags you look for or criteria you have for students?

How "picky" do you think you are as an instructor?

If behavior of a stdunr has a negative effect on the development of other students and their well being then get rid if that person. Especially if that person is a danger to other.

 

[JowGaWolf]

As an instructor I'm not picky. My training is challenging but not impossible people usually weed themselves out.

 

[skribs]

For me, it's the overall effect on the class. New students take time away from the other students, just by virtue of increasing the class size. But they provide new examples, new training partners, and potentially eventually future leaders.

However, if a student takes more than their fair share by being disruptive or disrespectful, or if they're a bad training partner, then it becomes a problem. Some of this can be part of the lesson. But some is so egregious, it's hurting all of your other students to keep them.

I remember a lot of students that were frustrating. I only remember one that I would have kicked out if given the opportunity. There may have been a few more, but it was few and far between.

The one I remember was 12 years old when he started. But a tall 12. He went into the 8-12 class and felt out-of-place because everyone else was so much smaller than him, and wanted to go to the 13+ class. I thought he was out of place because everyone else was so much more mature than him, and he belonged with the 4-7s.

This kid did go into the teenage class. During warmups, when he was supposed to count, he would alternate between whispering and screaming. There was one kid that he would bully and threaten. Which was especially stupid, because the kid he was bullying was twice his size and much, much, much, much better at Taekwondo. There were other students that he liked, so he would distract them during class.

He would go 0 effort on most techniques. If he put any effort in and did something anywhere close to correct, and receive any small amount of praise, he would go, "Yeah I'm the best I should be a black belt." I'm not sure if he was joking or not.

Nobody wanted to partner with him. When the Master would assign a black belt to him, I could see them grimace. Even black belts that were typically respectful of everyone. The other folks in the class? Even worse. He would spend half the time talking, and most of the remainder goofing off. I remember watching one punch defense, where the other person stood there for about 30 seconds with their hand out before he responded, because he was too busy talking.

The one time we did enjoy having him in class was the day he got his sparring gear, and black belts were lining up to kick him as hard as they could. I don't know that anyone blamed them, even the kid's Dad, who was at wits end with him. The Dad was one of the kindest, most respectful people I've ever met. I don't know how that kid came to be.

To my Master's credit, he wasn't just letting this kid get away with it. I would say that 90% of the time, he was called into the office after class, and he would often be in there for a half hour or so, while I led the next one. My Master was really trying to reach him. But, in doing so, it meant that the one kid got bullied, the other students got a bad training partner, black belts hated helping out, and then the Master was unavailable for most of the next class, all because of this one kid.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What are some of the red flags you look for or criteria you have for students?

It's OK for an instructor to ask a student for sparring. It's not OK for a student to ask the instructor for sparring. When a student asks to spar his instructor, after the sparring, the instructor should stop teaching that student.

Old saying said, "If you want to teach him, you don't fight him. If you want to fight him, you don't teach him".

The reason is simple. Everybody will get sick and get old someday. One day when you are 80 years old, a 20-year-old student asks you for sparring. Will you accept it, or will you turn him down? It's better to set up a rule so you don't have to make that decision.

 

[skribs]

It's OK for an instructor to ask a student for sparring. It's not OK for a student to ask the instructor for sparring. When a student asks to spar his instructor, after the sparring, the instructor should stop teaching that student.

Old saying said, "If you want to teach him, you don't fight him. If you want to fight him, you don't teach him".

The reason is simple. Everybody will get sick and get old someday. One day when you are 80 years old, a 20-year-old student asks you for sparring. Will you accept it, or will you turn him down? It's better to set up a rule so you don't have to make that decision.

That decision will depend wildly on the student.

In BJJ, it's actually typical for the opposite to be true: the instructor, or at least a higher up, is the one to spar beginners, because they can better control things if the beginner is a spaz.

You can always decline a spar for any reason. I don't see why it has to be such a big deal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can always decline a spar for any reason. I don't see why it has to be such a big deal.

If you have SC jacket on, you cannot turn down any challenge when your opponent also has SC jacket on.

This is the ancient Chinese rule that has been used over several thousand years. This ancient Chinese rule applies to everybody and that include a student and a teacher.

 

[MadMartigan]

I've had to tell a couple students over the years that they could no longer train. One, was someone who was actively getting in trouble with the law and would be a risk to others if he was better at fighting. Another we learned had previously stalked one of our students before coming out to join classes. In both cases, these prospective adult students were sent on their way.

With kids, it's harder. As Skribs said, you're trying to make a positive impact on them and help turn them into more respectful and safe people. If you give up on a challenging kid too soon, you may miss out on helping someone who really needed it. On the other hand, if they're ruining the class for others, they'll have to go. Usually, I've found those students end up quitting before they've been there too long. It's just a tricky balance either way.

 

[Anarax]

For me, it's the overall effect on the class. New students take time away from the other students, just by virtue of increasing the class size. But they provide new examples, new training partners, and potentially eventually future leaders.

However, if a student takes more than their fair share by being disruptive or disrespectful, or if they're a bad training partner, then it becomes a problem. Some of this can be part of the lesson. But some is so egregious, it's hurting all of your other students to keep them.

I remember a lot of students that were frustrating. I only remember one that I would have kicked out if given the opportunity. There may have been a few more, but it was few and far between.

The one I remember was 12 years old when he started. But a tall 12. He went into the 8-12 class and felt out-of-place because everyone else was so much smaller than him, and wanted to go to the 13+ class. I thought he was out of place because everyone else was so much more mature than him, and he belonged with the 4-7s.

This kid did go into the teenage class. During warmups, when he was supposed to count, he would alternate between whispering and screaming. There was one kid that he would bully and threaten. Which was especially stupid, because the kid he was bullying was twice his size and much, much, much, much better at Taekwondo. There were other students that he liked, so he would distract them during class.

He would go 0 effort on most techniques. If he put any effort in and did something anywhere close to correct, and receive any small amount of praise, he would go, "Yeah I'm the best I should be a black belt." I'm not sure if he was joking or not.

Nobody wanted to partner with him. When the Master would assign a black belt to him, I could see them grimace. Even black belts that were typically respectful of everyone. The other folks in the class? Even worse. He would spend half the time talking, and most of the remainder goofing off. I remember watching one punch defense, where the other person stood there for about 30 seconds with their hand out before he responded, because he was too busy talking.

The one time we did enjoy having him in class was the day he got his sparring gear, and black belts were lining up to kick him as hard as they could. I don't know that anyone blamed them, even the kid's Dad, who was at wits end with him. The Dad was one of the kindest, most respectful people I've ever met. I don't know how that kid came to be.

To my Master's credit, he wasn't just letting this kid get away with it. I would say that 90% of the time, he was called into the office after class, and he would often be in there for a half hour or so, while I led the next one. My Master was really trying to reach him. But, in doing so, it meant that the one kid got bullied, the other students got a bad training partner, black belts hated helping out, and then the Master was unavailable for most of the next class, all because of this one kid.

The type of student you're describing is similar to what I've dealt with before. As we're training the other students would avoid them like the plague. He/she would either try to escalate a drill to sparring or deviate from the drill to do their own thing. Either way, they were unproductive to train with and everyone knew it. They eventually stopped coming to class.

 

[Anarax]

I've had to tell a couple students over the years that they could no longer train. One, was someone who was actively getting in trouble with the law and would be a risk to others if he was better at fighting. Another we learned had previously stalked one of our students before coming out to join classes. In both cases, these prospective adult students were sent on their way.

With kids, it's harder. As Skribs said, you're trying to make a positive impact on them and help turn them into more respectful and safe people. If you give up on a challenging kid too soon, you may miss out on helping someone who really needed it. On the other hand, if they're ruining the class for others, they'll have to go. Usually, I've found those students end up quitting before they've been there too long. It's just a tricky balance either way.

That's great you intervened and did something. I've seen some instructors take a more passive approach to dealing with cases of students' criminality. Personally I don't agree with the passive approach and hold the students safety as the highest priority.

 

[Anarax]

It's OK for an instructor to ask a student for sparring. It's not OK for a student to ask the instructor for sparring. When a student asks to spar his instructor, after the sparring, the instructor should stop teaching that student.

Old saying said, "If you want to teach him, you don't fight him. If you want to fight him, you don't teach him".

I think this mostly depends on context and how it is being asked. I've asked black belts if they wanted to have a weekend sparring class for mid ranked adults. This was mostly to filter out the kids so the adults would have more productive sparring sessions. They all thought it was a great idea and none of them were offended.

I've also asked the black belts, who I've known for a while, if I could spar an extra round or two with them after class if I felt I didn't get in any productive rounds during class. They knew I was asking for I wanted grow and develop, not to challenge them. I would always ask in private after class and not in front of the other students. It's all about the approach and context.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think this mostly depends on context and how it is being asked.

In SC (Chinese wrestling), you can't challenge me if

- you don't have SC jacket on, or
- I don't have SC jacket on.

When we both have SC jackets on (such as in the class environment that both teacher and students all have SC jacket on), if a student challenges his teacher, the teacher cannot refuse. I had 7 of my students challenged me in the past. I was young and I didn't care. Today when I teach a class, I don't put on SC jacket. So, challenge cannot happen.

More serious than that, if you injury or kill me in the challenge, I and my family cannot suit you. That was the ancient Chinese rule. The SC jacket is also called "hero skin". If you don't have confidence, you should not put it on.

 

[geezer]

In SC (Chinese wrestling), you can't challenge me if

- you don't have SC jacket on, or
- I don't have SC jacket on.

This Shuai Chiao tradition doesn't apply to all "sparring" in all MA.

In many, perhaps most MA, sparring can be done at various levels of intensity. A full on challenge is very different from controlled sparring for training purposes IMO.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This Shuai Chiao tradition doesn't apply to all "sparring" in all MA.

In many, perhaps most MA, sparring can be done at various levels of intensity. A full on challenge is very different from controlled sparring for training purposes IMO.

When Ip men was 75 years old, if a 20 years old WC student asked him for sparring, should he accept it or should he not accept it?

We will all get old someday. This can happen to everybody. Will it be better to have a rule that a student is not allowed to challenge his teacher?

To prevent a problem from happening is better than to let the problem happen and then try to fix it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's OK for an instructor to ask a student for sparring. It's not OK for a student to ask the instructor for sparring. When a student asks to spar his instructor, after the sparring, the instructor should stop teaching that student.

Old saying said, "If you want to teach him, you don't fight him. If you want to fight him, you don't teach him".

The reason is simple. Everybody will get sick and get old someday. One day when you are 80 years old, a 20-year-old student asks you for sparring. Will you accept it, or will you turn him down? It's better to set up a rule so you don't have to make that decision.

This sounds like you are talking about winning and losing. A student shouldn't have that mindset about his or her teacher or coach.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That decision will depend wildly on the student.

In BJJ, it's actually typical for the opposite to be true: the instructor, or at least a higher up, is the one to spar beginners, because they can better control things if the beginner is a spaz.

You can always decline a spar for any reason. I don't see why it has to be such a big deal.

I will spar with students until I get too old to do so. When I'm too old, not fit for sparring or I just don't want to spar then I'll decline.

 

[geezer]

I will spar with students until I get too old to do so. When I'm too old, not fit for sparring or I just don't want to spar then I'll decline.

Why procrastinate? Look at me, I'm declining already!

Still doing some light sparring though.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you have SC jacket on, you cannot turn down any challenge when your opponent also has SC jacket on.

This is the ancient Chinese rule that has been used over several thousand years. This ancient Chinese rule applies to everybody and that include a student and a teacher.

There were alot of things wrong with "Ancient China" and this one probably has more to do with egos, organizational politics and the desire to keep one's status and influence in the community.

A gym doesn't have that cultural issue to navigate. My students will learn better by sparring with me. I will be able to teach them better when they spar with me. They should spar with me while I'm not old. When I get too old or too worn out. They I will decline all sparring above light sparring that a 6 year old can do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why procrastinate? Look at me, I'm declining already!

Still doing some light sparring though.

Training with my MMA sparring partners reminds me that I'm closer to not being able to spar like I did in my youth. I'm only 50 so I have a few years left until everything will be light sparring. What used to take a week to heal now takes a month if I'm lucky. Lol