What the...even MORE new poomsae from Kukkiwon?

[TrueJim]

A question related to the topic (if only slightly): when did the Kukkiwon switch from using Palgwe forms?

Around 1971. Taegeuk Poomsae

"In 1965 the Korea Taekwondo Association appointed a committee of representatives from six of the Nine Kwans to develop the forms for what is now called Kukkiwon- or WT-style taekwondo. The committee consisted of:

• Young Sup Lee of the Song Moo Kwan
• Kyo Yoon Lee of the Han Moo Kwan
• Hae Man Park of the Chung Do Kwan
• Jong Myun Hyun of the Oh Do Kwan
• Soon Bae Kim of the Chang Moo Kwan

In 1967, this committee introduced the Palgwe and Yudanja (Black Belt) forms (including a simpler version of Koryo). In 1971 two additional kwans joined the committee:

• Chong Woo Lee of Jidokwan
• Young Ki Bae also of Jidokwan
• Young Tae Han of Moo Duk Kwan

This expanded committee went on to develop the Taegeuk forms."

 

[TrueJim]

The movement in Taegeuk 7 (augmented/reinforced low block) is described in GM Kang Ik Pil's book as 엇걸어 아래막기 (Eotgeoro araemakki) which means a crossing/intersecting low block.

Yes sir! Would you believe I had just checked GM Kang's text shortly before reading this!

GM Lee Kyu Hung & GM Sang H. Kim's text "Complete Taekwondo Poomsae" refers to this same movement as "Low Section Cross Block". For some reason GM Kim chose the term "Low Section Cross Block" for that text.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Around 1971. Taegeuk Poomsae

"In 1965 the Korea Taekwondo Association appointed a committee of representatives from six of the Nine Kwans to develop the forms for what is now called Kukkiwon- or WT-style taekwondo. The committee consisted of:

• Young Sup Lee of the Song Moo Kwan
• Kyo Yoon Lee of the Han Moo Kwan
• Hae Man Park of the Chung Do Kwan
• Jong Myun Hyun of the Oh Do Kwan
• Soon Bae Kim of the Chang Moo Kwan

In 1967, this committee introduced the Palgwe and Yudanja (Black Belt) forms (including a simpler version of Koryo). In 1971 two additional kwans joined the committee:

• Chong Woo Lee of Jidokwan
• Young Ki Bae also of Jidokwan
• Young Tae Han of Moo Duk Kwan

This expanded committee went on to develop the Taegeuk forms."

Interesting. If I recall correctly, the school my brother attends converted from Palgwe to Taegeuk about 8 years ago. I'm assuming they must have changed affiliation at the time or some such.

 

[WaterGal]

No, but the only tournament remotely close to our school has a tendency to do "world class" stuff at the expense of traditional competition. This has led to judges who don't understand traditional poomsae to sparring rules that resulted in a LOT of facial injuries this year.

I could just imagine them requiring this next year.

It's possible, but I doubt they'll scrap traditional poomsae entirely - they'd lose a TON of competitors if they did that. One of the local tournaments we go to started offering Sport Poomsae as an event this year (for black belts only), but they still offered Traditional Poomsae for students who wanted to do that. I didn't go to that one, so I'm not sure how the numbers broke down, but none of our students were all that excited about the idea of finding out what forms they would do the day before the tournament.

 

[TrueJim]

It's possible, but I doubt they'll scrap traditional poomsae entirely - they'd lose a TON of competitors if they did that...

I don't think the concern is the scrapping of traditional poomsae events, so much as the fact that USAT-trained (or influenced) judges might be judging some of the traditional events, and so might be inclined to apply USAT-style criteria.

 

[skribs]

It's possible, but I doubt they'll scrap traditional poomsae entirely - they'd lose a TON of competitors if they did that. One of the local tournaments we go to started offering Sport Poomsae as an event this year (for black belts only), but they still offered Traditional Poomsae for students who wanted to do that. I didn't go to that one, so I'm not sure how the numbers broke down, but none of our students were all that excited about the idea of finding out what forms they would do the day before the tournament.

The problem is that the tournament I'm speaking of has younger folk judging the traditional poomsae, who really didn't understand traditional poomsae. By doing something other than what the judges know, in this case, leads to lower scores. They may not understand the slower pace or some of the techniques. So you end up shooting yourself in the foot by doing forms they don't know.

 

[tubby]

so its two weeks since the announcement, has anyone seen any videos of these new poomsae yet?

 

[TrueJim]

so its two weeks since the announcement, has anyone seen any videos of these new poomsae yet?

*crickets*

 

[WaterGal]

I don't think the concern is the scrapping of traditional poomsae events, so much as the fact that USAT-trained (or influenced) judges might be judging some of the traditional events, and so might be inclined to apply USAT-style criteria.

It sounded to me like his concern was that his competitors would go to a tournament, compete in a Sport Poomsae event, and be told to perform one of the new competition forms in the final round, which they might not physically be able to do because of the technical difficulty of the form.

 

[skribs]

It sounded to me like his concern was that his competitors would go to a tournament, compete in a Sport Poomsae event, and be told to perform one of the new competition forms in the final round, which they might not physically be able to do because of the technical difficulty of the form.

This is my concern. That my fellow students (I say "fellow students" because half the black belts at my school are same rank as me - 2nd Dan) will go to a tournament, perform Koryo and Keumgang, and then in the final round get told to do this form, which we would need to teach several of the specific techniques for them to do the form.

I myself am only proficient in 540 kicks turning to my left shoulder (so right leg 540 round, left leg 540 hook).

 

[TrueJim]

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'm going to go on record here as saying that any form that requires a 540 kick is no longer TKD. It's gymnastics. Any kick with more than a 360 degree turn is gymnastics rather than martial. Gymnastics are fine. But they're not martial arts.
And no, I do not care if the Kukkiwon endorses said form. The KKW demonstration teams have, for years, engaged in gymnastics. While these acrobatics certainly display athleticism and skill, that skill is not in martial arts.

 

[skribs]

I'm going to go on record here as saying that any form that requires a 540 kick is no longer TKD. It's gymnastics. Any kick with more than a 360 degree turn is gymnastics rather than martial. Gymnastics are fine. But they're not martial arts.
And no, I do not care if the Kukkiwon endorses said form. The KKW demonstration teams have, for years, engaged in gymnastics. While these acrobatics certainly display athleticism and skill, that skill is not in martial arts.

I am going to disagree. I believe that the gymnastics and the high-energy demonstrations that don't have a practical martial application, do fit the "art" category of the term "martial arts".

However, I have absolutely no qualms with someone who says "that stuff has no practical application, so it's not worth it for me to learn it."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am going to disagree. I believe that the gymnastics and the high-energy demonstrations that don't have a practical martial application, do fit the "art" category of the term "martial arts".

However, I have absolutely no qualms with someone who says "that stuff has no practical application, so it's not worth it for me to learn it."

While I don’t ascribe to that use of the word “art”, I will say I don’t know how to draw a hard line between what is and is not MA. I’ve drawn that line in different places throughout my life, and none have been durable. I find it easier (though still not entirely black and white) to focus on practical application, as you posted.

 

[skribs]

While I don’t ascribe to that use of the word “art”, I will say I don’t know how to draw a hard line between what is and is not MA. I’ve drawn that line in different places throughout my life, and none have been durable. I find it easier (though still not entirely black and white) to focus on practical application, as you posted.

In our Taekwondo classes, we have people who love doing the forms, not for their martial application but because they enjoy the forms. We have people who like trying the useless acrobatics. We have people who go for fitness. We have some people who go simply for mental fitness or psychological fitness. We have some who are obsessed with the sport applications of Taekwondo. Kids in our classes learn respect and discipline (and a few adults as well). I also enjoy the community my school has and I have a lot of friends there. We have some that are purely there for self defense. There's a LOT of different reasons you can take Taekwondo, or things you can get out of it.

For me, self defense and the practical application is probably 6th. Psychological fitness, physical fitness, the community, the gymnastics, and learning to assert myself and have confidence in myself are the top 5 things I feel I get out of Taekwondo. It doesn't always have to be about the self defense martial situations.

 

[TrueJim]

" According to the National Sporting Goods Association, 73.0% of those who practice martial arts do it so solely for physical fitness."

Martial Arts Clubs Industry Snap Shot - 2016 - Sports Club Advisors, Inc.

 

[WaterGal]

This is my concern. That my fellow students (I say "fellow students" because half the black belts at my school are same rank as me - 2nd Dan) will go to a tournament, perform Koryo and Keumgang, and then in the final round get told to do this form, which we would need to teach several of the specific techniques for them to do the form.

I myself am only proficient in 540 kicks turning to my left shoulder (so right leg 540 round, left leg 540 hook).

That's a valid concern - if your students are competing in Sport Poomsae events, and WT makes this change, and that filters down from WT to USAT to the local circuit, they may expect that. For poomsae, your students may have to stick to just doing Traditional instead of Sport events. I know that a lot of our students would be in the same boat, if that happened. (ETA: though none of our students compete in Sport Poomsae anyway! Most of the local tournaments here don't even offer it, and our guys haven't been interested, so far.)

 

[skribs]

That's a valid concern - if your students are competing in Sport Poomsae events, and WT makes this change, and that filters down from WT to USAT to the local circuit, they may expect that. For poomsae, your students may have to stick to just doing Traditional instead of Sport events. I know that a lot of our students would be in the same boat, if that happened. (ETA: though none of our students compete in Sport Poomsae anyway! Most of the local tournaments here don't even offer it, and our guys haven't been interested, so far.)

What if the tournament doesn't offer traditional poomsae?

 

[TrueJim]

What if the tournament doesn't offer traditional poomsae?

Realistically, I don't think there's any possibility of that happening. To host a tournament, the sponsoring school has to pay for:

• Rental of a facility (around here a typical Community College gymnasium goes for about $10K per day, when you take into account all the extra fees that they add on).
• Rental of the mats, computers, PA system, and other equipment.
• Stipends for the referees (which can include lodging if they're coming from far away)
• Stipends for the First Aid crew (usually some local EMTs looking to pick up a few extra bucks)
• Usually food & drinks for the VIPs (the various kwan jang nims and local government officials).

You can get up well into the 10s of $Ks pretty quickly in terms of costs.

Then let's say your typical athlete is paying $100 for the tournament. (Around here, typically around $80 for the athlete for one event + about $10 for each parents's tickets).

Bottom line, you need hundreds of athletes to break-even. For example if you spent $40K on the tournament, you're gonna need at least 400 athletes at your tournament.

By headcount, the most popular events at tournaments are little-kid-sparring and little-kid-poomsae. Those events are the bread-and-butter that pays for the prestige events such as World Class Poomsae and World Class Sparring.

A tournament that didn't offer traditional poomsae events wouldn't break even -- it'd go broke.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In our Taekwondo classes, we have people who love doing the forms, not for their martial application but because they enjoy the forms. We have people who like trying the useless acrobatics. We have people who go for fitness. We have some people who go simply for mental fitness or psychological fitness. We have some who are obsessed with the sport applications of Taekwondo. Kids in our classes learn respect and discipline (and a few adults as well). I also enjoy the community my school has and I have a lot of friends there. We have some that are purely there for self defense. There's a LOT of different reasons you can take Taekwondo, or things you can get out of it.

For me, self defense and the practical application is probably 6th. Psychological fitness, physical fitness, the community, the gymnastics, and learning to assert myself and have confidence in myself are the top 5 things I feel I get out of Taekwondo. It doesn't always have to be about the self defense martial situations.

Sometimes, even things with a specific application are enjoyable for a different reason. I created a set of simple kata, specifically to help students practice flowing from one technique to another (transitions) and to help them memorize the technique sets to save time during practice. Some of them just really enjoy doing the kata, just for the feel of the movement. I'm actually one of those. As I learn them better (I just introduced them this year), they get more enjoyable to use just as a way to get moving.