What kinds of KMA practitioners do we have here these days?

[Earl Weiss]

Master Weiss, Gen. Choi mentions in his autobiography having the initial plans for the Kukkiwon drawn up in 1967 while the ITF had been formed in 1966. I am unsure of the exact date of the KKW's completion but it was the site of the WTF's first WC in 1973, IIRC.

Pax,

Chris

That must be what I recall.

 

[Azulx]

@Dirty Dog you seem to have so much knowledge of TKD. I would love to pick your brain some time about how you teach certain techniques, forms, etc.

 

[Dirty Dog]

@Dirty Dog you seem to have so much knowledge of TKD. I would love to pick your brain some time about how you teach certain techniques, forms, etc.

I'm always happy to help how I can, within the limits of the medium.

 

[Azulx]

I'm always happy to help how I can, within the limits of the medium.

A couple days ago I posted on the importance of the principles of the way one spins during Hyungs. Specifically the Ch'ang Hon Forms, my instructor teaches us to spin clockwise, while the traditional forms spin counter clockwise. His reasoning, "It is the fastest way to strike the opponent." This is the way he was taught. I didn't think this was a wrong or unethical change, but I didn't know if other schools had these changes. You stated that you weren't a fan of the change of direction. I was wondering why? Is there a big picture that is missed as to why to spin a certain way? What do you teach is the importance of spinning a certain way?

Ex: In the traditional CH pattern, move 9 of Dan-Gun pattern requires an anti-clockwise spin into the Twin Forearm block (Square Block), we step together and spin clockwise into this move.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A couple days ago I posted on the importance of the principles of the way one spins during Hyungs. Specifically the Ch'ang Hon Forms, my instructor teaches us to spin clockwise, while the traditional forms spin counter clockwise. His reasoning, "It is the fastest way to strike the opponent." This is the way he was taught. I didn't think this was a wrong or unethical change, but I didn't know if other schools had these changes. You stated that you weren't a fan of the change of direction. I was wondering why? Is there a big picture that is missed as to why to spin a certain way? What do you teach is the importance of spinning a certain way?

Ex: In the traditional CH pattern, move 9 of Dan-Gun pattern requires an anti-clockwise spin into the Twin Forearm block (Square Block), we step together and spin clockwise into this move.

One reason for the turn to be in that direction (as I mentioned in that thread) is to practice turning backwards, the way you'll need to be able to turn for things like spinning back kicks. A balance drill. The turn itself can also be seen as an evasion of an attack.

 

[Earl Weiss]

A couple days ago I posted on the importance of the principles of the way one spins during Hyungs. Specifically the Ch'ang Hon Forms, my instructor teaches us to spin clockwise, while the traditional forms spin counter clockwise.

Ex: In the traditional CH pattern, move 9 of Dan-Gun pattern requires an anti-clockwise spin into the Twin Forearm block (Square Block), we step together and spin clockwise into this move.

While the system as more 3/4 turns to the left, there is one to the right in Yul Guk. There may be other s but I have not thought about it right now past Gae Beck. There are plenty of half turns in each direction.

 

[Azulx]

@Earl Weiss If you don't mind me asking, where is your school located?

 

[Earl Weiss]

My main location is in Des Plaines Illinois a little north of O'Hare airport. I have another very small - currently club in Skokie Il..

 

[Earl Weiss]

@Earl Weiss If you don't mind me asking, where is your school located?

National Taekwon-Do Academy, Inc.

 

[oftheherd1]

The discussion seems to have gotten away from the original question (never saw that happen before ).

I have not actively pursued training or teaching since about 2000/2001, my main art is/was Hapkido. Many years ago, about 1965, I studied briefly under Jhoon Goo Rhee in Washingto, DC, never getting past 8th Green belt. That was when he was still teaching traditional (whatever that is understood to be) TKD. Back then we never questioned any such thing as lineage, nor suspected there was any such important thing.

Same with the Hapkido I studied.

Good to see others who are studying Hapkido.

 

[Earl Weiss]

..................).

... Many years ago, about 1965, I studied briefly under Jhoon Goo Rhee in Washingto, DC, never getting past 8th Green belt. That was when he was still teaching traditional (whatever that is understood to be) TKD. Back then we never questioned any such thing as lineage, nor suspected there was any such important thing.

.

In 1965 if you walked into a school doing TKD there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon. It stayed this way thru 1974 or so. Even then it took schools to convert to a new system or jump on the newly popular moniker without changing their old Kwan ways.

 

[oftheherd1]

In 1965 if you walked into a school doing TKD there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon. It stayed this way thru 1974 or so. Even then it took schools to convert to a new system or jump on the newly popular moniker without changing their old Kwan ways.

I looked up Chang Hon. As I recall, our first three forms at the beginning white belt lever were called "H Forms" which looks like a Dan Gun form in Chang Hon, at the green belt level. We had two white belt levels, two green levels, 2 blue levels, and four brown belt levels before black belt.

That was a very long time ago so I could disremember.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

In 1965 if you walked into a school doing TKD there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon. It stayed this way thru 1974 or so. Even then it took schools to convert to a new system or jump on the newly popular moniker without changing their old Kwan ways.

That is an interesting observation, and certainly before my time. In my neck of the woods, the Young Brothers TK-D were the only ones from that lineage that I remember seeing with prevalence in the early 80's when I started taking TKD. My KJN opened a school in 1969, teaching Moo Duk Kwan "Korean Karate." I'm sure it was more of a case of running in circles you were familiar with, but we had various MDK masters visit our promotion examinations and tournaments through my early years, as well as representatives from Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, and various other kwan.

I cannot say with certainty that they were present in the 60's and 70's as that was before my time.

I do know that Sok Ho KANG (my KJN), Il Joo KIM, Kyongwon AHN, S. Henry Cho, Ki Whang KIM, and Jae Chul Shin all opened schools in the 1960's and were not of the ITF or Oh Do Kwan lineage.

Joon Pyo CHOI, Young Pyo CHOI, Song Oh MOON, Chun Shik KIM, and Choong Woon KIM all opened their schools in the early 70's.

Again, the most prominent school near me that was open during that time was the Young Brothers. I remember getting excited seeing their dobahks in the movie, "The Best of the Best" when I was a kid, haha.

I'm not asserting that you are wrong Master Weiss, I just didn't realize that the ITF/Oh Do Kwan was that prevalent throughout the U.S. in the 60's and 70's. Thanks!

 

[Earl Weiss]

....................... My KJN opened a school in 1969, teaching Moo Duk Kwan "Korean Karate." I'm sure it was more of a case of running in circles you were familiar with, but we had various MDK masters visit our promotion examinations and tournaments through my early years, as well as representatives from Jidokwan, Song Moo Kwan, and various other kwan.

.....................................

I do know that Sok Ho KANG (my KJN), Il Joo KIM, Kyongwon AHN, S. Henry Cho, Ki Whang KIM, and Jae Chul Shin all opened schools in the 1960's and were not of the ITF or Oh Do Kwan lineage.

Joon Pyo CHOI, Young Pyo CHOI, Song Oh MOON, Chun Shik KIM, and Choong Woon KIM all opened their schools in the early 70's.

......................................
I'm not asserting that you are wrong Master Weiss, I just didn't realize that the ITF/Oh Do Kwan was that prevalent throughout the U.S. in the 60's and 70's. Thanks!

My point is as you state above: "

My KJN opened a school in 1969, teaching Moo Duk Kwan "Korean Karate." .

People from these other Kwans were doing what those Kwans did. The "TKD" moniker had not become popular, in some circles was disfavored and generally not used by other Kwans . They did not adopt the TKD moniker instead avertising MDK, CDK, Tang Soo Do, Korean Karate etc. So, were they doing TKD?

So, if you walked into a school saying and advertising "TKD" in 1965 -1973 there was little chance it was anything but Chang Hon.

And therein lies the confusion. To now look back and say that any Korean who was kicking and punching was doing TKD even though they did not use and in fact may have rejected the name but later adopted the name,,, so that is what they were doing is the confusing part.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I apologize, I missed the context of your statement above. I always had the impression that the "Korean Karate" moniker was purely an attempt to get folks in the door, because most had heard the term "karate," but most were unfamiliar with the term Tae Kwon Do. Our dobahks and patches all read Tae Kwon Do, even back in the 60's, albeit not advertised on the signage out front.

It is interesting that, for the most part, the ITF/ODK lineage were the first to "advertise" the term TKD on their signage in the U.S.

I wonder why that is? General Choi's influence? Better standardized unification efforts by the ITF/ODK? Either way, interesting piece of history.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It is interesting that, for the most part, the ITF/ODK lineage were the first to "advertise" the term TKD on their signage in the U.S.

I wonder why that is? General Choi's influence? Better standardized unification efforts by the ITF/ODK? Either way, interesting piece of history.

No mystery. If you were ODK or later ITF you followed the General's orders. If not , you were not his subordinate the fact that he was an authoritative figure would piss you off. Therein was a basis for much animosity and rejection of the name.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

No mystery. If you were ODK or later ITF you followed the General's orders. If not , you were not his subordinate the fact that he was an authoritative figure would piss you off. Therein was a basis for much animosity and rejection of the name.

It's threads like this that keep me coming back to MT, thank you for the insight Master Weiss.

 

[Raymond]

I've done TKD and HKD in the past but have just started training Jungki Kwan HKD

 

[Jedmus]

I started in TAGB Tae Kwondo which is based on pre sine-wave ITF but have since moved to ITF and am 5th Kup (grading today to go to 4th Kup)