What is your view?

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by knifeman.dk
Can anyone help me find Dan Inosantos video "surviving edged weapons" in PAL format.

Great discussions, i learn a lot!

If you use Google, my favorite Search Engine at www.google.com you can type in "Surviving Edged Weapons PAL" and you should be able to find it if it is available.

Just remember, although it features Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje and Guro Dan Inosanto, it is actually a Law Enforcement Training Video produced by Calibre Press...

Good luck, it is basically counterknife but we all need those skills as well.

 

[Bob]

Awesome post Mr.Rearic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think you summed it all up when you just mention "Rosie's" name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your are right, "Very interesting conversation"

I am intrigued!!!!!!!
Bob

 

[Don Rearic]

Thanks Brother Bob.

Here is what I was speaking of earlier, just a few minutes ago.

This is the absolutely ungodly amount of people that have perished in this country.

It was from 1976 up to 1998.

In only one year were more people killed where a rifle or shotgun [long gun] was the weapon, than where something that could be placed in the edged weapons/knife category. One, single...year.

What this means is this, it is not placed here to argue for the banning of knives. I'm not a crusading banner!

No, it is merely to point out that we have a problem and the problem will continue on without properly addressing the problem. It's like placing a Band-Aid on your carotid, it won't work well...

The Source.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Don Rearic

Please understand something...everything has its place. Yin and Yang, light and dark.

We are as you note at danger of wandering well off topic so I will confine my reply to this one point: The concept of Yin and Yang means that there is some of each in everything. There is softness in stone, to cite a common example, and there is good and bad (potentially, at least) in each person. So I would say that while ascribing ill motives to the advocates of gun control it is wise to also recall that they probably have or started with some good motives too. There is always some of each.

The comment about not replacing gun deaths with knife deaths is dead-on and part of why gun control would not by itself solve the problem. I was not aware that Oregon, or anywhere, made switchblades legal but Oregon is often out in front on these sorts of things--assisted suicide, practice rights of chiropractors and naturopaths, and so on.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by arnisador
We are as you note at danger of wandering well off topic so I will confine my reply to this one point: The concept of Yin and Yang means that there is some of each in everything. There is softness in stone, to cite a common example, and there is good and bad (potentially, at least) in each person. So I would say that while ascribing ill motives to the advocates of gun control it is wise to also recall that they probably have or started with some good motives too. There is always some of each.

I always try to make my observations based on facts. Also, I desperately attempt to not paint with a broad brush, even if others do. The basic thing I wanted to get across to you and possibly others was, re: demonization. To simply point out that what I said is mild and tame, it pales in comparison to the other Camp. That's all. I think even you could agree with that if you have seen a good deal of the material they have published and you might see on the nightly news.

That's all. Just addressing the demonization angle and in order to do that, there had to be that inevitable drift. But we brought it back by applying it knives. And it is directly applicable and hopefully will give people a greater insight into things.

The comment about not replacing gun deaths with knife deaths is dead-on and part of why gun control would not by itself solve the problem.

Indeed...if you examine British Law as it now stands, lotsa people getting shot, lotsa people getting knifed. Knifings being historical in Great Britain. Now, we see Australia making the drift, first the guns, then came the knives in most areas. But it is not stopping anything because all of the violence that is driving it, that has not been addressed.

It is, in fact, illegal to carry a pocketknife in Britain now unless you can prove your work requires it and even then, you may still be arrested and you may still, again...a fact, be imprisoned. I could cite a case where a man proved to a Judge that he did in fact require a couple different types of knives for cutting ties, etc., in his work and the Judge said something like: "Even though you have to have these things to work, that has to be weighed with the societal fear of people carrying knives around in public and the only punishment I can see in your case is to deprive you of your liberty..."

I mean, that is not a direct quote, but I guarantee you when I dig it up, it is going to be very close indeed. I mean, what's up with that? What Justice is that? The Judge more or less stated that the man fit the exemption in the law but he was going to punish him anyway and this, in a very real way, has to do with fear and hatred.

Don't mean to write a book about it! I just want people to know.

I was not aware that Oregon, or anywhere, made switchblades legal but Oregon is often out in front on these sorts of things--assisted suicide, practice rights of chiropractors and naturopaths, and so on.

Up until last year, Switchblades were entirely legal in Florida as well, with the stroke of a pen, a Judge that did not like Switchblades made them illegal by interpreting [incorrectly] that they were banned under the Ballistic Knife Law. A Ballistic Knife being a Projectile Edged Weapon.

Some States allow Switchblades to be owned in the home, completely legal if you wish to collect them, etc. A couple States, it is OK to have them concealed if you have a Handgun Permit, a couple open carry is OK. It varies.

Some of them, they are treated with all of the fear of a mini-nuke. [joke-hyperbole, maybe not!]

Same thing with Balisongs and a lot of other knives as well.

What I want more than anything is for this to be an informative and interesting exchange and although it might drift at times from the intent of the Forum, I basically asked by starting this thread, "What is your view?"

And you know what? I'm getting it! I like the exchange and hope it continues.

Thanks,

Don

 

[Bob]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
A European video format. In the US, our vids are in NTSC (I believe) while in Europe, they are in PAL. Has something to do with the signal rate of the video (50htz vs 60htz) I think.

Perhaps someone else can give a little more info?

Thanks Kaith

 

[Bob]

Might be a little of the topic, but does involve knives. Switzerland is allowing knives back into their airports because after Sept 11, the Swiss Army knive industry start to take a down slide. They think this will help their sales........ I guess what I am trying to say that the issue of weapons is a multi sided monster which will probably never be solved, but it doesn't hurt to have the best weapon of them all and that is knowledge.
I would also like to bring up a point about gun control and anti gun associations, if they win the battle and take away guns where will it stop?? Next they will go after our knives and we become like Britian. Is it not feasible to think they will go after our martial arts in one way or another?
Just a thought
Bob

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Bob
I would also like to bring up a point about gun control and anti gun associations, if they win the battle and take away guns where will it stop?? Next they will go after our knives and we become like Britian. Is it not feasible to think they will go after our martial arts in one way or another?

Just a thought

Bob

They have already made serious attempts at touching the Martial Arts World. It is important. Very important.

You will never see my posting to a Bulletin Board about fixing a Vintage, tasty-smooth, Harley Panhead. You will never see me posting about Neurosurgery.

This stuff, I know about. I've been into this stuff since the age of nine.

When I was a teenager, the ABC "News Magazine, 20/20" did a special on Martial Arts Weapons and the ready availability of same through Mail Order.

It can touch us. We dodged a bullet, will we dodge the next one?

The Source.

Here is one British Police Website, only one thing I hinted at earlier.

British Police Website.

 

[Don Rearic]

If you click on the link provided, you will see "The Slippery Slope."

Scroll down to Section VIII to see, "The Campaign Against Self-Defense."

Here is what I posted about earlier with the knife in Britain:

From the Slippery Slope Article:
No prosecution for defending oneself is too absurd. Consider a report from the Evening Standard newspaper in London, dated October 31, 1996:
A man who uses a knife as a tool of his trade was jailed today after police found him carrying three of them in his car. Dean Payne, 26, is the first person to be jailed under a new law making the carrying of a knife punishable by imprisonment. Payne told ... magistrates that he had to provide his own knife for his job cutting straps around newspaper bundles at the distribution plant where he works .... Police found the three knives--a lock knife, a small printer's knife, and a Stanley knife--in a routine search of his car.... The court agreed he had no intention of using the knives for "offensive" purposes but jailed him for two weeks anyway.(p.437)....[The magistrate said] "I have to view your conduct in light of the great public fear of people going around with knives...I consider the only proper punishment is one depriving you of your liberty."

The Source.

It all matters and it is all incredibly important to us all.

Thanks,

Don

 

[IFAJKD]

This is a part I have been trying to stay out of but here I am...I never learn. Many strong opinions on this...Guns, specifically hand guns towards human beings...I think the point someone made about missing is very important. While I would not want to bet my life on it I would prepare for the strong possibility that there would be a miss.
So many things change here. Many gun fights between FBI (most stat keepers) and bad guys have resulted in an embarrasingly large amount of rounds all missing their intended target.

1) stress
2) perception
3) sense of time
4) depth perception
5) stillness
6) flinching
7) closing their eyes when pulling the trigger
8) unpreparedness to really shoot
9) self preservation
10) lack of training

these things all go into an altercation that can result in "botched"
Guns are not more effective in my opinion than knives though the intimacy isn't there as it is with a knife. Guns are just another tool. People who have gotton bed these 10 things will be as dangerous with a blade as with a knife. It's moot. Untimately, it's in the hands of it's user is it not.
I just want to train and watch my backyard and that of my family and friends. To that end I will do everything I have to. Our country has to have it's Hot Topics for people to chomp on. Guns, drugs, weapons in general, Martial Art Instructors etc. It always will. I think these things just are.
Given a choice of what to use...I prefer a knife but I use a handgun well too. This is how I want to keep it for me...
Given a choice of injury or attack, er a hand gun over a knife. Hand gun has one angle and frequent misses, Knives have many angles and difficult wounds (cuts) to treat.
Hell they are both bad.

 

[Bob]

Keeping in the spirit of reality preparness training inside the schools,
Do any of you instructors out there who train knive fighting, set up scenerios or drills that increase the fatigue and stress factors of the student, for example blind folding the student etc. etc.

B

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by IFAJKD
So many things change here. Many gun fights between FBI (most stat keepers) and bad guys have resulted in an embarrasingly large amount of rounds all missing their intended target.

Yes, indeed they do! And we can learn alot from various things that have been learned. Such as:

Most gunfights [exchanges] occur at 21 feet or less. [That number "21" is a magical thing, isn't it? We see that in the Knife V. Firearm situation]

Of those gunfights, most happen at a distance of less than 10 feet. Ten feet down to contact range.

Most occur in low to extremely low levels of light.

Just these three things mean this, the Edged Weapon, in ALOT of cases, is going to be as viable as a Handgun in Trained Hands. You do have to know more than a bladed art. You have to choose the right equipment and you have to do one, incredibly important thing.

Learn and practice to draw under many different situations and scenarios. Same as a Handgun.

Guns are not more effective in my opinion than knives though the intimacy isn't there as it is with a knife.

I would say that according to the stats, the knife has the capability in, again, Trained Hands, to be every bit as lethal as a Handgun. We agree more than we disagree.

Yet, to say that "Guns are not more effective [in my opinion] than knives" has to also be placed in the proper context.

Yes and no.

If we talk about being raped or robbed, indeed, no one rapes or robs from across a street, the knife is viable in Trained Hands.

If we change the scenario to a parking lot where you might have multiple attackers, it is bad enough with a Handgun, but if the opponent should have a Handgun, or one of his "Associates" should that is waiting in the wings and you just sliced his Pal up, you're in deep...possibly over your head.

It is a distance weapon. There is always a place for that. Your Wife walks ahead of you with your child and some groceries, she rounds the corner to go into the house and the house has been burglarized, the burglars come out...you bring up the rear...you see what I mean?

And these things do in fact happen in the real world. They have happened before, they happened yesterday, today and they will happen tomorrow. If you are going to have a handgun and Carry Permit, you should train with these things in mind.

I think it is entirely situational, but I will tell you this, there are times when only an edged weapon will do and even if I were carrying a handgun on a Permit, I would still carry edged weapons.

Guns are just another tool...

...Untimately, it's in the hands of it's user is it not.

That's Gospel for the most part.

Given a choice of injury or attack, er a hand gun over a knife. Hand gun has one angle and frequent misses, Knives have many angles and difficult wounds (cuts) to treat.
Hell they are both bad.

Yes, the handgun needs the steady platform to be effective and the knife and stick are the exact opposite. That's why a handgun, as long as you get by the first shot, is going to be easier to disarm than someone flinging a piece of razor sharp steel at you.

As for the wounds, that is entirely situational. I hate to disagree, if you lose alot of blood and you are in shock, you're in deep trouble, period.

But as far as the exact complications of the wounds? No way...

You get cut across the hand good, you better believe you might need an Orthopedic Surgeon to put your hand back together to the point you can use it again!

You put a bullet through that hand and that bone becomes many secondary missiles, ripping and tearing through...it is MUCH more complicated any time bone is involved and let's face it, if the only gunshot wounds that existed were "through and throughs" penetrating only soft tissue with no bone and organ damage, hell, they would not be nearly so deadly and the knife would be the undisputed King of the Heap.

That is not the case.

 

[Don Rearic]

Originally posted by Bob
Keeping in the spirit of reality preparness training inside the schools,
Do any of you instructors out there who train knive fighting, set up scenerios or drills that increase the fatigue and stress factors of the student, for example blind folding the student etc. etc.

B

I use a pair of DeSantis [Holster Company] Low Light Simulator Goggles during alot of training. I've also used Safety Goggles smeared with a film of toothpaste. If you've ever been finger jabbed in the eye, you'll know why.

One good thing to try is take a dumbell, the weight being in the moderate range, don't do a set number of curls, mix it up, biceps, triceps, etc., and just do it until you cannot do it anymore, fatigued.

That's Gross Motor Skill.

Now, access, pull, open, the full drawing motion, then simply do a #1 Cut.

That's Fine Motor Skill.

Try it, you'll like it! Well, maybe not at first, but you will see the value of it.

 

[Bob]

Originally posted by Don Rearic


One good thing to try is take a dumbell, the weight being in the moderate range, don't do a set number of curls, mix it up, biceps, triceps, etc., and just do it until you cannot do it anymore, fatigued.

That's Gross Motor Skill.

Now, access, pull, open, the full drawing motion, then simply do a #1 Cut.

That's Fine Motor Skill.

Try it, you'll like it! Well, maybe not at first, but you will see the value of it.

That is a great idea!!!!!!!!!! I have probably experienced that but not on purpose. I will have to try incorporating this idea...

 

[Don Rearic]

Bob,

I'm a thief! I was watching this Documentary on The Discovery Channel about four years ago or so...it was on SEAL Teams [I can hear the groans, I'm not a wannabe, I wanted to see if they had any H2H in it and plus, hey, the way they abuse those short M60s lights my fire! Man...ABUSE!].

So, this one SEAL, he goes to the ground and has the MP5 slung across his back [Standard H&K 3-point sling] and he does a rapid set of push-ups...

Up off the ground he comes, pulls the MP5 from the back, around his body, engages targets while walking toward them, the MP5 hangs free in front with that sling, he just let's go and it's there, he draws the handgun, pop, pop, pop...

So, Don starts to thinking...Hahahaha!

"Hey, gross to fine motor skills, this is good stuff..."

So, I started working on things like that and you have to focus when the mind is clouded on the street, you might be shaky.

Hell, if you have to pull down, you might be out of breath and more than a little shaky because the way the laws are now, you're better off trying to get the hell out of there! But if you're not Bruce Jenner, trouble might catch up with you. [I'm only half-joking here...]

The most skilled and deadly man with a knife, you do not attack him in his own kitchen when he is cutting meat. But if that same man is out in the street and he has a knife on him but he does not practice drawing, he might not ever get a chance if someone else puts a lot of time in drawing...etc.

 

[Bob]

Originally posted by Don Rearic
Bob,

[I'm a thief! I was watching this Documentary on The Discovery Channel about four years ago or so...it was on SEAL Teams]

Hey, if you're going to "borrow", you might as well borrow some good stuff!!!

[laws are now, you're better off trying to get the hell out of there]

AMEN!!! This point is sad but true. I have heard from many instructors, and law enforcement officials that it really doesn't pay to know how to defend yourself because when it all happens you should have the control and constraint to walk away because you are a train fighter.

[But if you're not Bruce Jenner, trouble might catch up with you]

This statement is so true and I can relate because I am nothing like Bruce Jenner, for those that know me on this forum they can confirm this!!!!

[But if that same man is out in the street and he has a knife on him but he does not practice drawing, he might not ever get a chance if someone else puts a lot of time in drawing...etc].

Another point I find important to suplement with drawing is training your environmental awareness. I in my humble experience, not becoming complacent in your every day life can give you that extra second needed to avoid or defend. For example, walking through your own yard and noticing certain things that have been altered, or certain things that are "out of the norm". I have seen and noticed many people who just automatically turn off their awareness as soon as they pull into their yards. I don't know where you all live but that can be a serious problem in some neighborhoods. Another example are those who get into a routine or in a hurry and park in a dark area and get focused or tunnel vision. Certain cues either audio, visual or smell can give you a heads up on how you should prepare, whether to just get back into your car, or draw your tool of choice and have it concealed or already out. This might sound paranoid to others, but it does work.
Robert Anderson who is a very dynamic instructor here is Washington state gave a class on awareness and he suggested a couple games to play with either yourself or others. He said start out by giving yourself 10 points at the begining of the day or week, and each time something sneaks up or surprises you take away a point. Meaning, if you get so caught up in what your doing and get tunnel vision and someone walks up on you that you should have noticed then you take away points. If you play it with your partners then the goal is to catch you off guard. I am not saying going to the extreme like the relationship the Inspector from the Pink Pather movies has with his associate, but just a "got ya" type of game. Another suggestion he had was when you walk into a room or a club with your partners, someone says go and everyone starts pointing to the nearest exist, or "safe zones" in the room.....
So, I guess the moral to the story goes back to the point I made a couple of days ago, "action is quicker then reaction" we as law abiding citizens have to find ways to counteract this equation. And now with IFAJKD and Mr.Rearics good points we have more variable to add into the story problem....{god I hate story problems }

Thanks for reading my rants
Bob

 

[Don Rearic]

Bob,

Nope, your rants are fine. A bunch of rants together, equals a really good picture of some knife and counterknife in this thread. Along with knife v. gun and how all of the things are related and how people are trying to control that. And control us by design.

Awareness [radar] really is something everyone needs to cultivate. That has to be adjusted to where you live. Obviously, a guy living in NYC might be a tad bit more radical in intensity and what he is carrying in the way of multiple edged weapons or whatever...

Compared to a guy who lives in rural Montana...

 

[DWright]

Originally posted by Don Rearic


"Awareness [radar] really is something everyone needs to cultivate. "

The levels of awareness/alertness has been published, by Caliber Press, and taught at many Street Survival Seminars.

White Level: No/little awareness. The person is in a place where he feels very comfortable, or a person who believes bad things only happen to the other guy.

Yellow Level: Where most trained people operate. By trained I include Martial Artists, military, Police etc. These people have trained by having someone attack them. They are aware of their sorroundings, and who is around them. (The trained person operates in this level, usually, whenever he/she is out of their own home.

Red Level: Highest level of awareness. Not fight or flight, but something has triggered a warning. You will know when you enter this level. This is the "hair on the back of your neck stands up" level. You may have to respond, or it may be a false alarm.

The ideal level to operate in is yellow. Not being afraid being aware.

 

[Don Rearic]

Dinnelle,

Stuff to live by. I think people need to fine tune that as well and use their eyes, ears, nose and their "6th Sense" [Gut] more though.

Calibre Press did a new twist on a very old "concept." That was standard U.S. Marine Corps Doctrine Pre-W.W. Two, The Color Code, actually. Colonel Jeff Cooper, Famous Pistolero and in General, Excellent Gun Guy, he modified that and more or less made it another standard for Citizens and Police Officers.

It remains excellent advice, however. Thanks for bringing it up!

 

[Pugsly]

There have been some great training ideas discussed in this thread. Which ones work the best for the beginning Martial Artist.