What is with slow Wing Chun than fast Wing Chun?

moonhill99

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Why is some wing chun slow and some wing chun fast?

Why is some wing chun slow like this?




Well other wing chun are fast like this?

 

Xue Sheng

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Why slow and fast in the videos you provided....well...they are mostly Demonstrations and the last one appears to be a Wing Chun school in China, Hong Kong, Taiwan or Singapore....because it is Mandarin.....and those guys tend to go all out with litle consideration of the guy they are working with...if they are all Chinese, and they are. But in all honesty, some of it looks a bit sped up
 

mograph

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It's not uncommon for Chinese martial arts to practice slow and fast sometimes. You've heard the motto, "slow is smooth, and smooth is fast?" Hey, that's how musicians practice difficult fast passages, too.

(BTW, the sparring/demo in video #4 is sped up.)
 

WingChunIsNoSport

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Wing Chun is not meant to be fast or slow and you also need to realize there are levels.

Wing Chun is meant to be effective and reactive with offense. But it is only as effective as the practitioner. You'll see guys 20 years deep in the art and they will take 30mins just to do Siu Lim Tao. Why? So they don't need to think about using the techniques if they have to use them.
 

geezer

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Wing Chun is not meant to be fast or slow and you also need to realize there are levels.

Wing Chun is meant to be effective and reactive with offense. But it is only as effective as the practitioner. You'll see guys 20 years deep in the art and they will take 30mins just to do Siu Lim Tao. Why? So they don't need to think about using the techniques if they have to use them.
Not sure how doing Siu Nim Tau slowly for years will help you to instinctively and effectively apply your art against a competent and non-compliant opponent.

SNT does train important skills, but not that skill.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not sure how doing Siu Nim Tau slowly for years will help you to instinctively and effectively apply your art against a competent and non-compliant opponent.

SNT does train important skills, but not that skill.
I also don't believe if one trains in slow speed all the time, suddently he can move in lighting speed. He may have a heart attack when he moves fast. I believe slow training can be just for someone who is old, weak, sick, and lazy.

One day when you get old, you don't want to talk about slow and soft. You want to talk about fast and hard. :smuggrin:
 

WingChunIsNoSport

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Not sure how doing Siu Nim Tau slowly for years will help you to instinctively and effectively apply your art against a competent and non-compliant opponent.

SNT does train important skills, but not that skill.
It is because by doing so it becomes instinct and you don't need to think, especially considering SLT/SNT is the foundation of Wing Chun. Perhaps the most important aspect is training your body to instincutally perfect the techniques while remaining in a relaxed and calm state, which is how we should be when applying. Loose, fluid, relaxed, at all times. Tightening or tensing up will make your WC suffer, maybe badly.

As for actual success with the application of the techniques, for this one needs to also face incoming pressure and how to incorporate them. These are different aspects. If you are arguing that one needs pressure testing to make what they learn work, I'm with you 100%.

It isn't ironic that numerous Sifus who stress SLT and taking longer and longer to do it (especially the tan sao, hun sao, woo sao, then fook sao, hun, woo) also are proponents of bare knuckle sparring.

Look at guys like Adam Williss' and as Gary Lam states:

"Siu Lim Tau is not only for beginners but to be practiced throughout the practitioners lifetime. It is the foundation or "seed" of the art from which all succeeding forms and techniques depend. Fundamental rules of balance and body structure are developed here."
Also from Samuel Kwok:

Constant Focus - Focus is maintained on the motions and stress placed on each arm the practitioner develops an awareness of each arm. Focus is developed during the practice of Siu-Lim-Tao, which when performed properly takes at least a half-hour, as the position of every single body part must be maintained. Avoid the feeling of excitement or impatience before starting to practice.
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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I also don't believe if one trains in slow speed all the time, suddently he can move in lighting speed. He may have a heart attack when he moves fast. I believe slow training can be just for someone who is old, weak, sick, and lazy.

One day when you get old, you don't want to talk about slow and soft. You want to talk about fast and hard. :smuggrin:
That isn't what I said at all. Anyways, go ask any reputable Sifu about it. And its not the entire SLT that is done slow, if you were properly trained you'd know this and wouldn't even consider making a senseless comment like that.

But I'm going to also be fair and suggest perhaps I did not properly articulate my point, so I will just post this from Sifu Adam Williss' page where he talks about the criticality of Siu Lim Tao. It's only 3mins and I hope it helps you better understand my point.


Also from Samuel Kwok:

Constant Focus - Focus is maintained on the motions and stress placed on each arm the practitioner develops an awareness of each arm. Focus is developed during the practice of Siu-Lim-Tao, which when performed properly takes at least a half-hour, as the position of every single body part must be maintained. Avoid the feeling of excitement or impatience before starting to practice.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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take 30mins just to do Siu Lim Tao.
30 minutes is what I don't agree with.

Your single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale. If your single move take more than 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, your training is wrong no matter what style you may come from.

The 108 moves Taiji form only take 4 minutes and 40 seconds. SLT is much shorter than the 108 moves Taiji form.

 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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30 minutes is what I don't agree with.

Your single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale. If your single move take more than 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, your training is wrong no matter what style you may come from.

The 108 moves Taiji form only take 4 minutes and 40 seconds. SLT is much shorter than the 108 moves Taiji form.

Again you misunderstand or misinterpret. Siu Lim Tao can also be performed in 4mins that's not the point.

And here is the 108 Taiji form done in 24mins+

 

Kung Fu Wang

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And here is the 108 Taiji form done in 24mins+

He doesn't follow the basic MA guideline that "1 single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale."

What's the problem not to follow this guideline? One will develop bad habit and have inhale, or exhale in the middle of a single move. That single move is then broken apart into multiple pieces (not a single unit anymore).
 
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Xue Sheng

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30 minutes is what I don't agree with.

Your single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale. If your single move take more than 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, your training is wrong no matter what style you may come from.

The 108 moves Taiji form only take 4 minutes and 40 seconds. SLT is much shorter than the 108 moves Taiji form.


the traditional Yang style long form (depending on how you count, 88, 108, etc.) as it comes form Tung Ying Chieh, and the Yang family, is trained slow and it takes 15 to 20 minutes, or more. But the sil lum tao form, as it comes from my current teacher, takes only a few minutes
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the traditional Yang style long form (depending on how you count, 88, 108, etc.) as it comes form Tung Ying Chieh, and the Yang family, is trained slow and it takes 15 to 20 minutes, or more.
It depends on whether you follow the MA guideline that "1 single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale".

Can you image that you throw a punch with exhale, inhale, and exhale again? You will never do that in fighting. So why should you do that in training?
 

WingChunIsNoSport

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He doesn't follow the basic MA guideline that "1 single move should coordinate with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale."

What's the problem not to follow this guideline? One will develop bad habit and have inhale, or exhale in the middle of a single move. That single move is then broken apart into multiple pieces (not a single unit anymore).
Firstly, we are comparing different arts. This isn't to minimize the importance of breathing but I don't think you understand the concept. Do you practice Wing Chun? And no it isn't about one move coinciding with an inhale or exhale. It is about being in such a relaxed focused state that you don't just perform the movements, you become them with control of breathing.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Do you practice Wing Chun? It is about being in such a relaxed focused state that you don't just perform the movements, you become them with control of breathing.
I started WC training since 1973.

Are we talking about training for combat, or training for health? For health training, you can breath anyway that you want to. For combat training, there are some basic guideline that you have to follow.

Again, can you image that you throw a punch with exhale, inhale, and exhale again? You will never do that in fighting. So why should you do that in training?

My concern is, the moment that you have developed a bad habit that you breath in the middle of a single move, it will be difficult to remove it.
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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I started WC training since 1973.

Are we talking about training for combat, or training for health? For health training, you can breath anyway that you want to. For combat training, there are some basic guideline that you have to follow.

Again, can you image that you throw a punch with exhale, inhale, and exhale again? You will never do that in fighting. So why should you do that in training?

My concern is, the moment that you have developed a bad habit that you breath in the middle of a single move, it will be difficult to remove it.
I highly suggest you watch the video I posted by Sifu Adam Williss, it gives a great explanation. You can also ask your Sifu.

I will also tell you what my Sifu told me (he was like an assistant to Ip Ching and trained under him directly, so he is my Sigung). Siu Lim Tao is like an alphabet. When you first learrn to write, you write quick the A B C's trying to get the shape right. As you progress, you write words, then sentences, then paragraphs then essays, perfecting what you have practiced.

I am shocked this is unknown to you if you've been practicing since 1973. Ip Man was said to have taken up to an hour doing Siu Lim Tao. And no, it is not for combat but definitely will help if you have to combat due to the structure, muscle memory, relaxation, calmness and mental toughness it develops.

For combat, you would definitely use the techniques but this is what chi sao, the dummy and sparring (preferably bare knuckle) is for.

Here is another great write up...

 
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moonhill99

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Perhaps the most important aspect is training your body to instincutally perfect the techniques while remaining in a relaxed and calm state, which is how we should be when applying. Loose, fluid, relaxed, at all times. Tightening or tensing up will make your WC suffer, maybe badly.

Yes I notice their body seems to be more relax when striking and practicing trapping. Unlike American kenpo karate and other karate you will see the person tense up their body when striking or being hit.

So there seems to be a big philosophy difference there.

The strange thing is lot of Kung Fu has circular movements but Wing Chun is base on that centerline.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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The strange thing is lot of Kung Fu has circular movements but Wing Chun is base on that centerline.
You can protect center from inside out. You can also protect center from outside in.

When you protect your center from

- inside out, you can use your arms to separate your opponent's arms away from his head.
- outside in, you can force your opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm.

Both strategies are equal important.
 
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