Tan/Bong Gerk Not In Some Lineages

WingChunIsNoSport

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Hey Kung Fu brothers.

I train in Wing Chun, my Sigung is GM Ip Ching. I was wondering if anyone might be able to shed some light on why our lineage does not incorporate the tan or bong gerk in our system? Sifu said some lineages have it but Sigung did not include or teach it and we follow him.

I'm wondering if it has to do with the emphasis of quicklu moving forward instead?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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why our lineage does not incorporate the tan or bong gerk in our system?
I always have some concern with the WC Tan Shou. You turn your left parm facing up to block your opponent's punch.

If you

- want to grab your opponent's arm, you have to rotate your left hand 270 degree clockwise. If your left Tan Shou faces to your right, you only need to rotate your left hand 180 degree clockwise to grab your opponent's arm.
- left Tan shou faces to your right, it's just like a vertical punch with finger tips. When you train your vertical punch, you also train Tan Shou at the same time.
- want to change your Tan Shou into comb hair, your don't have to rotate your hand. It's much faster.
- train hand washing, you have to use both vertical hands.

Some people may say that the palm up Tan Shou can be used to pull your opponent's arm with the outside wrist area. But the control won't be as good as your last 3 fingers.

So your left Tan Shou can be replaced by a left spear fingers with your left palm faced to your right.

wc_tan.jpg


His right Tan Shou has palm facing left.

wc_tan_1.jpg
 
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hunschuld

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Official Chi gerk was started by some students of Yip Man .The kicking motions on tan gerk and bong gerk existed but were not named such as Chi gerk gerk done as a complement to chi sau was not a thing
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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Official Chi gerk was started by some students of Yip Man .The kicking motions on tan gerk and bong gerk existed but were not named such as Chi gerk gerk done as a complement to chi sau was not a thing

Yeah I actually found the answer. Ip Man never taught it apparently and it was developed and taught to others by Wong Shun Leung. This is according to Sifu Sergio.

The naming is just conceptual I believe as a tan gerk is like a tan sao with your leg/foot and same with bong gerk, you just turn your foot in as opposed to out. I'm sure you know what I mean. But props for pretty much having the answer, thanks!
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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I always have some concern with the WC Tan Shou. You turn your left parm facing up to block your opponent's punch.

If you

- want to grab your opponent's arm, you have to rotate your left hand 270 degree clockwise. If your left Tan Shou faces to your right, you only need to rotate your left hand 180 degree clockwise to grab your opponent's arm.
- left Tan shou faces to your right, it's just like a vertical punch with finger tips. When you train your vertical punch, you also train Tan Shou at the same time.
- want to change your Tan Shou into comb hair, your don't have to rotate your hand. It's much faster.
- train hand washing, you have to use both vertical hands.

Some people may say that the palm up Tan Shou can be used to pull your opponent's arm with the outside wrist area. But the control won't be as good as your last 3 fingers.

So your left Tan Shou can be replaced by a left spear fingers with your left palm faced to your right.

View attachment 29581

His right Tan Shou has palm facing left.

View attachment 29582
Brother is correct about me asking about the gerk (foot), not sao (hand) but I'd still love to toss in my opinion on this if it might help.

In my opinion, you are over-complicating it and not going back to fundamentals. The bottom picture, which you seem to prefer, is, in my opinion, an example of how the master is showing how a poor tan can get you hit. Look where the student's hand is and look where the master's fist is.

Furthermore, in a real actual fight, I don't suggest standing in the "Ip Man" stance (though I have seen high level guys do it and dominate). This is more Hollywood and is essentially chi sao posturing. In a real fight, you don't want to posture first and as Sifu says, Wing Chun is about using your opponent's commitment as an invitation to immediately go on the attack.

Now back to basics. Think Siu Lim Tao and how many different times the tan sao is used (many don't realize the 2nd movement when you bring your arms up, you go through a crossed-over double tan, even if not full range).

As for your point.

If you:

- want to grab your opponent's arm, you have to rotate your left hand 270 degree clockwise. If your left Tan Shou faces to your right, you only need to rotate your left hand 180 degree clockwise to grab your opponent's arm.

* The tan sao is not a posture, it is a movement. A letter in the alphabet of Wing Chun that is used to form words and if needed, sentences. Quite frankly, if your tan sao hand faces right, then that is probably more a double woo sao (if there is such a thing) than a tan sao.

As for grabbing an opponents arm, which arm? How is the arm coming? Furthermore, if you ARE going to grab an opponent's arm then you should properly learn how to do a lop sao. Remember what comes right after the first tan sao in SLT? When your palm faces up you are neutral and therefore, can do a huen sao around the opponent's punching arm as you deflect it with the tan sao and properly get the lop sao in, with your thumb on the inside of their arm and your others fingers on the outside. You could even do a huen sao the other way to trap hi arm then come across with an elbow.

Also, the last thing you'd want to do is a biu jee (darting fingers) with your palms facing the side. It's just a really bad move that could get you an easy broken finger. Remember SLT, after the bong sao, you go back into a tan sao and then...push the bottom of your palm in an upward motion. That's a strike. Also remember that you could go from a tan sao to a shovel hand to the throat very easily with just a simple wrist turn. Or, just rotate your arm 180 and go for a bil sao.

The hand is not used to deflect, it's the forearm, whether a tan sao or bil sao.

I mean these are just ideas, concepts you could do from a tan sao but if you want to see some awesome application of the tan sao, check this out, from Adam Chan.


This master Wong, but honestly, he shows very simple and effective use of the tan sao to deflect and if you look where his hands end up at the end, it would not be difficult to do a huen sao, come around his arm with your hand into a proper lop sao (where your thumb should be on the inside). You'd probably be better served to deflect with the tan then move straight in with a punch or elbow as opposed to trying a lop sao (like above). Just my opinion.


Just look at the still above. Why deal with worrying about a grab when your opponent is twisted and you can just moe in and strike him in any way. Hope that helps.
 
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wckf92

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Hey Kung Fu brothers.

I train in Wing Chun, my Sigung is GM Ip Ching. I was wondering if anyone might be able to shed some light on why our lineage does not incorporate the tan or bong gerk in our system? Sifu said some lineages have it but Sigung did not include or teach it and we follow him.

I'm wondering if it has to do with the emphasis of quicklu moving forward instead?

Don't know if it's true or not, but years ago I'd heard or read somewhere that your GM's brother, Yip Chun, basically removed all kicks from his wing chun. Perhaps his brother did the same?
 

Callen

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His right Tan Shou has palm facing left.

wc_tan_1.jpg
IMO, there are several ways to interpret what might be going on here.

From my training, this is not an example of a Taan Sau. This looks like someone in the ready position with the Man Sau/Wu Sau guard, and Barry Pang (the sifu in the image) is doing a Pak Da entry from a bridge. Barry Pang delivers a Pak with his left hand to the outside of the right arm of his student, while punching at the same time.

Now back to basics. Think Siu Lim Tao and how many different times the tan sao is used (many don't realize the 2nd movement when you bring your arms up, you go through a crossed-over double tan, even if not full range).
This is also referred to as, two hand train, one hand use. Not to be thought of as a double Taan Sau, but more of a method of training both sides at the same time. Another example of how not all the movements in the forms are direct applications.
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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Don't know if it's true or not, but years ago I'd heard or read somewhere that your GM's brother, Yip Chun, basically removed all kicks from his wing chun. Perhaps his brother did the same?
Haven't heard that about GM Ip Chun but you're talking high kicks they both removed them. Sigung taught kicks for sure but Sifu says they shouldn't be above the waist. The higher you go the more risk you take and can be easier put off balance easier and also lose the centerline control. We don't want to get sucked into force vs force.
 

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Yeah I actually found the answer. Ip Man never taught it apparently and it was developed and taught to others by Wong Shun Leung. This is according to Sifu Sergio.

The naming is just conceptual I believe as a tan gerk is like a tan sao with your leg/foot and same with bong gerk, you just turn your foot in as opposed to out. I'm sure you know what I mean. But props for pretty much having the answer, thanks!


Yeah, I'm not convinced of that, but it's folk history, so it's tough for anyone to know.

I had a guy visit my class before COVID who had trained at the Ving Tsun Athletic Association in Hong Kong. He told me that Ip Chun had removed all of the kicks from the system and didn't want them taught anymore. Some of the older students did them privately away from the kwoon.

That doesn't make any sense to me, but I suppose it might be true. Maybe someone else knows better.

"Without feet, there are no hands."
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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Yeah, I'm not convinced of that, but it's folk history, so it's tough for anyone to know.

I had a guy visit my class before COVID who had trained at the Ving Tsun Athletic Association in Hong Kong. He told me that Ip Chun had removed all of the kicks from the system and didn't want them taught anymore. Some of the older students did them privately away from the kwoon.

That doesn't make any sense to me, but I suppose it might be true. Maybe someone else knows better.

"Without feet, there are no hands."
I can't speak for Ip Chun but one of Ip Man's main teachers was Chan Wah Shun who focused much less on kicking so from that perspective it would make sense but he wasn't his only teacher.

Ip Ching is my Sigung and what I can tell you with certainty is that there are indeed kicks, you start learning it in Chum Kiu, though kicks above the waist have been removed from the system for maximum efficiency and the concept of being rooted and maintaining the centerline. Sifu also says the more your punch or kick strays from your body's natural dynamics, the more power and structure you sacrifice. I mean you're on one leg. Don't get me wrong, I mad respect the acrobatic kicks and high kicks cats can do but a high or spin kick gone wrong can be the end of you in a street fight. High risk high reward. Wing Chun is about eliminating risk and threats.

By the way, here is an older Ip Chun doing Chum Kiu with kicks so if kicks were removed, it wasn't him...unless they meant kicks above the waist, that was a decision taken by the Association for which both brothers were Grand Masters.

 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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Many things are seeded in the first form. I'd advise you to look more closely in that form.
100% agree but the first form is all hands, arms and structure but yes many seeds.

And it's not like there are no kicks, look at Chum Kiu.

I'm convinced it is because of telegraphing/clambering as you have to pull your leg back or angle it and also ensuring balance is maintained as you can accomplish the same thing with a forward kick without having to go into an awkward stance to kick.

The same reason they don't suggest kicking above waist level, especially to sacrifice balance. I'm sure we'll both agree it is advisable to be on one leg for as short a time as possible.

And you definitely don't want to get your foot caught.
 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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Back? No.



Balance training is part of the wing chun journey.



Agreed!
You know what I mean what I mean when I say "pull back" the leg, this is just body dynamics, if you are using the front leg just going into the tan gerk position will naturally pull your leg/knee back. But if we are talking technically, then if you were to do it from the back leg you obviously wouldn't need to because it is already back and can be put into the tan position while moving forward. But this is also counter to the principle in Wing Chun of kicking off the front foot with weight on the back leg.

Let me ask another way, do you think the same impact or result can be achieved with just a front kick? I believe yes and no. If you are using for striking, targeting the knee etc then it can, but the tan/bong gerk can also be very effective to turn or spin your opponent because of the foot/leg positioning. I'd love to get your take.

Of course balance is a major part of the journey and this is really the salient point. You will see a lot of people lean back on one leg just to get the leg higher. Also, balance and flexibility are totally different assets and you need both for proper high kicks. My Sifu tells me to do SLT on one leg for balance at least once a day but that won't make me kick higher. It will help me kick more effectively and efficiently though.

 
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WingChunIsNoSport

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When you sweep your opponent's leg, you are in single leg balance. But your opponent is in worse balance than you are.

foot-landing-sweep.gif
Well of course, that's why you are sweeping in the first place. But your leg is off the ground for how long when you sweep and you also root yourself on the one leg. Personally, for the sweep like above, I'd use less foot and just use a forearm chop across his body (or throat) while sweeping to get him down. Ideally you wouldn't want to cross your leg over (you can see the sweep even put him off balance) and using the forearm will force you to pivot and help you be in better position when you drop your opponent. Just my pennies.
 

Eric_H

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Yeah I actually found the answer. Ip Man never taught it apparently and it was developed and taught to others by Wong Shun Leung. This is according to Sifu Sergio.

Ah yes, the same guy who mixes Taiji in with his wing chun and calls it the 1700s wing chun ancestor style. What a wonderful font of truth that has absolutely no self promotion agenda behind it.
 

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