What is a JKD certificate worth?

[Aikia]

As I have read information on this site it becomes evident that there are a few who are very attatched to their JKD linage and certificates. Here is my question... In terms of monetary value, what do you feel being "certified" to teach JKD is worth? In other words, is anyone able to make a full time living by teaching JKD? If being "certified" to teach JKD does not lead to professional status as a full time martial arts instructor, is JKD actually a hobby oriented program for part time income? Or is JKD certification used primarly as a credential or add on for rank in other arts? I know that some are willing to spend thousands of dollars and travel long distances to earn certification. Why?
Let me add that I no longer teach JKD as a physical art but rather as a philosophical conceptual framework for the study of martial arts. I have no attatchment to JKD, as Bruce implied let the word be deleted from your vacabulary if it causes you much anxiety. Some have become very stressed out...Why?

Dr.Jerry Beasley

 

[ThuNder_FoOt]

If you are speaking in terms of monetary value, I'm sure others would agree that it is solely dependant on the fame that is associated with Lee. Supply and demand. And I believe that with JKD's growing popularity, it is for this reason that many JKD certified Instructors seem to be emerging.

 

[Enson]

monetary value is probably self imposed. its to say that it values what it values to that person. to me or others outside of the art in might not mean much.

i have a family member who used to be a jkd practicioner under gary dill's course. he had his certificate on the wall showing that he was a member. dill tried to emphisize (sp?) that he was teaching the art in its original form. i wasn't too impressed with his stuff.

now there are some that claim jkd concepts. i just think its a big confusion and if jkd is a style then it should be more organized and developed. if its a concept... well then it should be stated as such. again all my opinions come from outside the box.

peace

 

[loki09789]

As I have read information on this site it becomes evident that there are a few who are very attatched to their JKD linage and certificates. Here is my question... In terms of monetary value, what do you feel being "certified" to teach JKD is worth? In other words, is anyone able to make a full time living by teaching JKD? If being "certified" to teach JKD does not lead to professional status as a full time martial arts instructor, is JKD actually a hobby oriented program for part time income? Or is JKD certification used primarly as a credential or add on for rank in other arts? I know that some are willing to spend thousands of dollars and travel long distances to earn certification. Why?
Let me add that I no longer teach JKD as a physical art but rather as a philosophical conceptual framework for the study of martial arts. I have no attatchment to JKD, as Bruce implied let the word be deleted from your vacabulary if it causes you much anxiety. Some have become very stressed out...Why?

Dr.Jerry Beasley

Martial arts training in general usually is categorized as either "health and fitness" or "sport/recreation" or something along those lines.

Monetary value? Calculate what you paid for lessons, gas, fees, travel, accomadations, food....in the process of earning it (like they calculate college expense) and that will lay a foundation.

The other skills that are needed to be successful as a 'professional artist' either instructing (business knowledge, financial planning, insurance, ...) would probably be more significant to 'market' profit than your martial skills IMO or as a 'professional artist' as 'stunt man/fight coordinator/competitor' (fitness, stunt training, acting, rules of the road for your 'arena'....) again will dictate your success more than just your artistic rank/skill.

"So you can dance....what are you going to do with it and how are you going to get it done? Do you have a plan, know anyone?" is the type of conversation I would hear a career counsellor ask to help come up with a realistic outline.

 

[Aikia]

Thanks for your comments. I agree that one interpretation of "value" would have to consider the ammount invested versus the potential to gain an income. This question pertains to receiving an income from teaching JKD.
For example the karate groups have professional business organizations that teach them how to market their skill. Even first degree black belts often gross $6000. or more per month for teaching Tae kwon do or karate. I get the impression that there are no JKD schools in which the instructor earns a middle class living. I know that in the early 1990's I offered a beginning JKD class at the university. Few students,it seemed had an interest in JKD. I changed the listing to JKD/Kung Fu and the enrollment was greatly increased. My beginning karate and TKD classes were always full. A review of JKD forums suggests that JKD instructors generally must supplement their programs to include coursework in kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, kickboxing or the standard karate,TKD etc. What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.

 

[loki09789]

Thanks for your comments. I agree that one interpretation of "value" would have to consider the ammount invested versus the potential to gain an income. This question pertains to receiving an income from teaching JKD.
For example the karate groups have professional business organizations that teach them how to market their skill. Even first degree black belts often gross $6000. or more per month for teaching Tae kwon do or karate. I get the impression that there are no JKD schools in which the instructor earns a middle class living. I know that in the early 1990's I offered a beginning JKD class at the university. Few students,it seemed had an interest in JKD. I changed the listing to JKD/Kung Fu and the enrollment was greatly increased. My beginning karate and TKD classes were always full. A review of JKD forums suggests that JKD instructors generally must supplement their programs to include coursework in kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, kickboxing or the standard karate,TKD etc. What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.

Trad arts like TKD/Karate are very "Beginner Friendly" because they are direct and simple (that does not mean that later in training the subtle/sophisticated elements don't come into play) to understand.

JKD, much like some other arts like Chinese/FMA arts tend to lack the clear reputation and are 'heady' early in training because of the conceptuallity that makes them distinct from karates and TKDs.

More frustrating in the beginning and also not as many tournies for short term and overt goals for training.

It is hard to keep large groups of students when I focus on 'self defense' primarily and don't spar or do forms that will win you a trophy...nothing wrong with that type of goal, just not what I focus on.

 

[James Kovacich]

I think that the answer lies in the "way of Instruction" that JKD focuses on smaller groups vs. the commerialized large number of students. It's impossible to use the high numbers of students of the common commerialized karate class and expect to achieve "the ultimate reality of truth in combat."

JKD has commercialization to a certain extent but as long as the "way of no way" remains the goal, the method of teaching will remain the same.
:asian:

 

[achilles]

I think Bruce Lee said something along the lines of only 1 in 10,000 will actually stick to the training of JKD. I'm sure I didn't get that literally, but in essence I think I nailed it. JKD, real JKD, is not easy and requires that the practitioner constantly avoid getting too comfortable. JKD is about personal growth and evolution which can be a scary thing for people who are looking for security.

I think that when you keep the numbers small and focus on quality, it is difficult to draw the necessary student numbers to contend with the local black belt factory, but who cares? If you are teaching JKD primarily to make money, you don't have much respect for the legacy of the founder.

As far as certificates go, I think that they may or may not mean much depending on the instructor who issues them. A certificate, in theory, is the corporeal representation of the confidence your instructor has in you and symbolilzes the authority he bestows as a legitimate part of his legacy. This model seems to me to reflect the family like structure of gung fu. My certfication shows both my membership to the clan (and thus the authenticity of the training I claim) as well as endorsement of my Sifu. One may be a very skilled practitioner, but that in and of itself does not entail that he is the inheritor of the clan legacy, because he was not in fact given it. A valid, but kind of silly analogy is that of buying meat. You can buy good meat that isn't governmentally inspected. It may be perfectly healthy, but there is nothing to guarantee that. Certfied meat has to meet certain guidelines, so the purchaser can be more secure in the knowledge that what he is consuming is healthy. If I am in a new town and meet an instructor who is certified under someone whose criteria for certification I respect, I can deduce that he probably knows his stuff. Without certification, I don't know. He may be good at what he does, but you don't know right away.

 

[Flatlander]

What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.

Well, I don't know him personally, but I believe that Sifu Lamar Davis Jr. is doing just that. I may be wrong. You could ask him in his hardcore JKD forum @ www.realcombatonline.com , or e-mail him @ [email protected] , or check out his website @ http://www.hardcorejkd.com/

 

[Aikia]

I agree that JKD instruction is best designed for small groups. Please read my post to the thread...Something I have pondered.
JB

 

[Enson]

i have to admit it is nice to see someone of dr. beasley's experience on this forum. that being said...


i have never seen a complete jkd school. the styles are always integrated with something else. probably because bruce lee himself closed his jkd schools because he didn't want it to become a style. well at least thats what i heard. so if the "gm" didn't want this to start... maybe there should be no jkd at all. so maybe thats why you can't open a true jkd school, but can only add jkd concepts.
peace

 

[Aikia]

Enson,
You are right. Bruce closed his JKD kwoons in 1971 and asked all of his students not to teach JKD. In my book "The Jeet Kune Do Experience". I interviewed the top JKD instructor who says that he promised Bruce that he would not commercialize or teach JKD. Bruce felt that JKD was best as a philosophy ("Use what works",as the "way of no [particular] way") and was afraid that his students would mistake the practice drills and techniques as the total art thus, creating the "limitations" that JKD opposes. Has that happened? Some say yes, some say no. That's what makes it interesting.
Jerry Beasley
Author, "The Jeet Kune Do Experience"

 

[Flatlander]

I'm curious, if Enson is correct, in your opinion, and you "interviewed the top JKD instructor who says that he promised Bruce that he would not commercialize or teach JKD", would the interview granted to you for the purpose of publishing and marketing a book not equate to a commercialization of JKD?

 

[Enson]

i have a question aswell that arises...

what is your opinion of gary dill? he claims he teaches jkd just as bruce lee taught i (which apparently he is not supposed to do) . i have my own opinion of him from what i've seen, but i would like to hear from a man of your caliber.

peace

 

[Aikia]

As you may know very few can turn commercial in JKD and actually make money. The return from publishing a book is perhaps a few grand ( spread over a period of years). Videos cost so much to make and promote that the field of profit makers is again limited ( unless you teach seminars and sell to attendees). Seminar instructors are in position to make the most income. Perhaps less than a dozen nationwide can go full time. The top guy interviewed in my book "The Jeet Kune Do Experience" is the top paid JKD seminar instructor of all time. At age 70 some suggest he will retire in the next few years. A few, like Mr. Dill have retired from full time careers and make part time income from JKD organizations. The fact is very, very few (perhaps only one or two) have earned a hansome wage ($100,000 per year or more) as JKD instructors. After the first generation instructors retire the average earning potential of a JKD instructor may be little more than the average factory worker could expect to make in a 40 hour week, and there is no cross country travel for the factory worker. What is a JKD certificate worth? Based on the information I have collected, the answer is not much compared to a black belt in TKD or karate. JKD practitioners must study the art for self gratification or to add to their knowledge base, because the chances of quitting the 40 hour week to go on the road as a JKD instructor are low.
JB

 

[achilles]

What is any certificate, degree or title worth?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Thanks for your comments. I agree that one interpretation of "value" would have to consider the ammount invested versus the potential to gain an income. This question pertains to receiving an income from teaching JKD.
1) For example the karate groups have professional business organizations that teach them how to market their skill. 2) Even first degree black belts often gross $6000. or more per month for teaching Tae kwon do or karate. 3) I get the impression that there are no JKD schools in which the instructor earns a middle class living. I know that in the early 1990's I offered a beginning JKD class at the university. 4) Few students,it seemed had an interest in JKD. I changed the listing to JKD/Kung Fu and the enrollment was greatly increased. My beginning karate and TKD classes were always full. 5) A review of JKD forums suggests that JKD instructors generally must supplement their programs to include coursework in kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, kickboxing or the standard karate,TKD etc. 6) What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.

Dr. Beasely
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) I would think that business techniques to run your school would transfer to JKD as well as any other MA. In fact I think that the offering of other martial arts (other styles kali, BJJ, Thai Boxing etc. etc.) is a good marketing tool and one that was in the forefront before schools started expanding and adding more cross training programs to boost attendance.

2) I think this is due to learning how to run a successful school as a business model than due to the popularity of karate TKD. ( In that a 1st Dan could make this kind of money) Most schools that I have seen aren't run by a 1st Dan, generally they are the ones running a feeder program at the YMCAs and recs centers. However I do know some higher dan ranks that run these programs as well while holding a primary job.

3) I think there have been some. The late Terry Gibson who was in Tulsa OK comes to mind. His school was pretty successful (it's still there I think but someone else has taken it over), and he taught JKD along with the other systems (it was a JKD Concept school). How about Burt Richardson, Lamar Davis, Ron Billicki (spelling?), and I'm sure there are others. However since JKD isn't as well of a known MA as say karate/TKD/Kung Fu I believe that there are far fewer instructors that are able to earn a living teaching JKD than the other MAs.

4) I believe the TKD/Karate/Kung Fu has a bigger presence here in the sates and therefore when people see a class being offered they will generally gravitate to the ones whom they know, more so than trying something new. especially in a college type setting. I would also think that you might get the percentage of students who took the TKD/karate/KF class before as a kid (or that someone they knew took it) and decide to take it again as well. So not only is the name recognition better but also the past experience factor as well.

5) I don't consider this supplementing their programs, rather I think it is a continuation of the JKD Concepts programs. In the JKD Concepts; Kali is taught along side of the Silat, the Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, Shoot fighting etc. etc. etc. as well as the Jan Fun Gung Fu (Bruce Lee's system). To me this is a good marketing tool and trying to reach out to a wider base of people. Since someone might be interested in the BJJ (or any other sub system taught) and decide to come to your school because of that and then later on move into branching out into the other classes/arts/sub systems as well.

6) From this I take it you mean original JKD (or what's called/refered to as original JKD). I don't know.

Now what might be a different question to ask but still along the same lines is why a JKD school might not be profitable? And I think there might be several factors to this (and these can apply to any other MA as well).
1) Name recognition

2) Market (I think this is key): (this is my opinon only) Who is in the market for this type of training, young males (some females) by and large. And who is the most fluctuating market again young people. Therefore the student base is fluid and not the kind to build a steady clientel on.
a) From my experience from attending some clases at different schools, seminars etc. etc. I don't see many people in their 40's (and above) and many kids (16 below) in the JKD classes. However in a given TKD/karate class the kids are the bread and butter, and thier parents are sometimes in the programs as well.

3) The instructors, uniforms (or lack there of), schools
JKD has the hardcore training, the backyard classes, the lack of uniforms, and young instructors, as their calling card. Does the average person want this? Does the young professional who wants to maybe learn some self defense want to join a backyard group with no matts, no mirrors, being taught out of someone's garage? Or the young mother? Will the older man whose taken some karate back in his youth seek out a guy whose much younger than him. Or will he seek out the older instructor at the karate dojo down the street whom he can relate to and who owns his own business?
a) The lack of uniforms, to the person who thinks everyone needs to wear a gi, or wants to wear a gi to make them feel special they don't like the idea of everyone wearing different attire. Again maybe the young women feels intimidated by the good looking woman in a sports bra and T shirt and tight pants (workout attire) and wants to be some place where she will feel anominity (everone dressed the same).
b) This might rankle some, but the instructors might be another problem. I have met some who were good in one art and ok in another. But if you are teaching the JKD Concept approach then the art that you are good in, might not be the art I'm interested in, or even better in. So the instruction might not be as good in some areas.

Please I understand that in the all of the arts there is always something else to learn, and I'm not knocking JKD or saying JKD is bad. I'm just bringing out points for disscusion since the question was asked how come JKD can't teach for a living.

Submitted with respect
Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Sorry I made a mistake in my last post.

I meant to say in my final statement that JKD Instructors can't teach and make a living from thier teaching.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

As you may know very few can turn commercial in JKD and actually make money. The return from publishing a book is perhaps a few grand ( spread over a period of years). Videos cost so much to make and promote that the field of profit makers is again limited ( unless you teach seminars and sell to attendees). Seminar instructors are in position to make the most income. Perhaps less than a dozen nationwide can go full time. The top guy interviewed in my book "The Jeet Kune Do Experience" is the top paid JKD seminar instructor of all time. At age 70 some suggest he will retire in the next few years. A few, like Mr. Dill have retired from full time careers and make part time income from JKD organizations. 1) The fact is very, very few (perhaps only one or two) have earned a hansome wage ($100,000 per year or more) as JKD instructors. After the first generation instructors retire the average earning potential of a JKD instructor may be little more than the average factory worker could expect to make in a 40 hour week, and there is no cross country travel for the factory worker. 2) What is a JKD certificate worth? Based on the information I have collected, the answer is not much compared to a black belt in TKD or karate. 3) JKD practitioners must study the art for self gratification or to add to their knowledge base, because the chances of quitting the 40 hour week to go on the road as a JKD instructor are low.
JB

Dr. Beasley
Once again I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) I would wager that very few instructors in any MA (compared to the total number of MA instrucors teaching) make $100,000.00 or more per year as a livable wage. While their schools might bring in that much gross per year, factoring in wages to staff, rent, utilities, supplies (buidling and equipment), and other expenses I don't know or haven't met anybody that makes that kind of money. Granted I have read about them and all in the trade magazines (NAPMA and Century's), but I haven't met anybody.

2) The JKD cert is worth (IMHO) as much as the BB cert in karate or TKD. Because from what I have seen as I stated in my previous post and this one, I don't see that many people teaching and making a living from it (as their sole income), most of the dojos around here where I live the instructors are teaching on the side (TKD and Karate) as well as running their schools. And they are no different than the JKD instructors I have met in the same circumstances.

3) I agree that the chances of becoming a seminar instructor are low in JKD, however I think they are low in any martial art. Nor do I think the average instructor in a martial art wants to take on the responsibilty and hassle of going on the road every weekend teaching. Most people are teaching the MAs because they enjoy the martial arts, if they can make some money on the side then great, so they teach small classes. A fewer amount feel the need or drive to take on the resposibility of a commercial school, and even fewer amount want to take on the job of trying to market themselves to teach the seminiar circut.

Dr. Beasley
I too am glad you have joined this group at MT. I know you have much more experience with the JKD realm, instructing various students in your college classes, and you have contact with the different MA business groups out there. I'd appreciate your input if I'm off base on my points.

With respect
Mark

 

[kroh]

Very strange debate going on here...

To the first part of the thread... How much is it worth... Shouldn't the question be, "How much is it worth to you?" In terms of time and talents spent in the school I attend... Thousands of dollars have already been spent (don't get excited...almost 7 years of training combined with seminars from many of the brightest bulbs in the batch). Thousands more may come and go... The point is...my goal isn't the peice of paper issued by my instructor. It is to understand what he is teaching and try to take it to the next level. I assume my training will one day lead me straight into an officially sounding peice of paper... But if I don't open a school... It looks realy nice on my wall.

As for schools opening up that teach straight Jun Fan Gung Fu / JKD... Hmmm... Inosanto Academy, Los Angeles, CA..... East/West, Cortland, NY... Derderian Academy, Johnston, RI... and those are just the ones off the top of my head...I'm sure everyone here is smart enough to use a search engine to find one on the net if you had to. Do these schools offer other arts as a part of what they offer in their business? So does a college. Does that make a college that teaches medicine and other programs less inclined to teach you what you need versus a school that only teaches medicine? Not at all.

If you are a quality instructor with a certifiable background, then you will draw quality students who will stay with you for what you have to offer. The slackers and posers will find what you have to offer too difficult and take off. Quality draws quality and that is really what that peice of paper is worth. If you went to a one day seminar to be certified to teach JKD... You might want to get a set of ear pluggs...

The rest of us are laughing at you...

Regards,
Walt