What is a JKD certificate worth?

I believe, simply that the act of evaluating and trying to value anything reduces it's worth.

The art is what is transmitted, the hits felt, the laughs shared... The certificate: worthless. Should you seek no value in it, it's worth will show itself.


Stephen Watson
www.ShhDragon.com
 
Mark,
Thanks for the insights. I tend to agree with your comments. I had only recently joined a few JKD forums, and initialy only because several students told me that they had read something about me on a website. I wanted to resopnd to a few comments and ended up spending a lot more time.
I have written quite a bit about JKD because I was challanged by Lee's articles. There was so much politics and in-fighting in my original 1960's martial art of ITF Tae kwon do that I was ready to move on. I found even more in-fighting and politics in JKD. At least in TKD instructors could make a good livining teaching their art. I have found very few schools that could be considered a monetary success bases strickly on teaching JKD. As you and others point out to be successful the JKD school must teach other arts. This is not true of the TKD/Karate school.
So my question really asked,"If the end result of JKD instructor certification is to teach, and, you can only teach small groups, why so much in-fighting and politics?" I moved away from JKD. Who needs the gripes? I now only refer to myself, when asked, as JKD influenced. I teach the JKD influenced kickboxing method taught to me by Joe Lewis as a seminar topic and small group training.
I think most of the people that associate with JKD are not intending to be certified as JKDC or OJKD. They are simply JKDInfluenced. You are JKDI when you allow Bruce Lee's philosophy to change the way you teach and practice your martial art.
JB
 
JB,

I would tend to think that the success of the big schools has less to do with the actual politics and more about the approachability.

Tae Kwon Do schools frequently advertise as follows:

Come learn the Korean arts of Self defense in a safe and fun atmosphere with qualified instructors. Our spacious umpteeenth foot dojang has all the latest equipment and conveiniences as well as ample changing rooms and well lit parking. Whether you are looking for self defense or sport, a great way to stay in shape or find self discipline... Etc...

This kind of deal appeals to more than just the guy looking to duke it out. Families and people not sure what they are looking for are attracted to this kind of advertisment because it promises exposure to the MA in a safe enviornement of learning. These ads can be found everywhere from the grocery store to the local newspaper. They know how to promote and they tailor the classes to their audience. Hell, I even sent a friend of mine's kid to one of these schools.

The JKD crowd on the average usually aren't that concerned with producing a fun safe atmosphere (I am a JKD guy and I can't even tell you what atmosphere means...Wink*wink). They are concerned with the propegation of their art and teaching people realistic fighting method. The same is true with other martial arts as well.

I live in Rhode Island and the state is DROWNING in a sea of martial arts places that open up and are closed a month later. In all these places that open up, i usually see a lot of Kenpo (Cerio or Parker Methods) as well as some others (tang so do, American Karate and once I saw a Muy Thai). I don't see a lot of Kali/Arnis, or Koryu (Japanese methods of old military combat that have been around the block for the last couple of centuries) or JKD because of the clientel they draw. They understand that to master their skills, they have to put in more than just three one hour classes a week. They are going for a higher standard than the Joe that is just looking for a fun hobby that might get him/ her in shape.

I am not trashing these other schools by any means. I have been to many a family oriented school that teaches self defense and sport to watch my friends and their families throw down. They have great and inovative programs! But being part of a JKD school i have noticed that the retention of students is sporatic. Either they don't want to learn anymore because they now have a taste for blood and want to just throw down (MMA's and the Vale Tudo Stuff)... or they find that the ciriculum is too hard and they leave (these are the two most common reasons).

As far as the certificate goes...in today's day and age it is a form of liscence that allows the client to check on the services of the provider. This gives the client some confidence in the service that he will receive. In older times, many systems either didn't issue certs or if they did, it was to provide a means to continue the system according to the founders wishes ( the Japanese use to use scrolls for this). In today's America, for those who wish to start a succesfull business, getting that peice of paper is important because they want their clients to have every confidence in what they provide.

If you are only looking to pass on what you know to a relative, however, the paper will only be important to later generations that will want to validate anyones claim to be from so and so system...

Those that are only looking to learn...our reasons are our own.

Respectfully,
Walt
 
Aikia said:
Mark,
Thanks for the insights. I tend to agree with your comments. I had only recently joined a few JKD forums, and initialy only because several students told me that they had read something about me on a website. I wanted to resopnd to a few comments and ended up spending a lot more time.
I have written quite a bit about JKD because I was challanged by Lee's articles. There was so much politics and in-fighting in my original 1960's martial art of ITF Tae kwon do that I was ready to move on. I found even more in-fighting and politics in JKD. At least in TKD instructors could make a good livining teaching their art. 1) I have found very few schools that could be considered a monetary success bases strickly on teaching JKD. 2) As you and others point out to be successful the JKD school must teach other arts. This is not true of the TKD/Karate school.
3) So my question really asked,"If the end result of JKD instructor certification is to teach, and, you can only teach small groups, why so much in-fighting and politics?" I moved away from JKD. Who needs the gripes? I now only refer to myself, when asked, as JKD influenced. I teach the JKD influenced kickboxing method taught to me by Joe Lewis as a seminar topic and small group training.
4) I think most of the people that associate with JKD are not intending to be certified as JKDC or OJKD. They are simply JKDInfluenced. You are JKDI when you allow Bruce Lee's philosophy to change the way you teach and practice your martial art.
JB
Click to expand...

Dr. Beasely

Thanks for your response, I added numbers to your post in order to addres them.

1) My exposure/instruction in JKD came from the JKDC group from some Dan Inosanto seminars and such. So I tend to think that JKDC teaching the other arts in schools was a natural outgrowth or rather the way the business model was put forth from Mr. Inosanto.

2) With today's competion in the teaching of martial arts, I see more and more cross training and now some schools are teaching multiple arts (even under the same roof). Or renting space to other teachers of a different system, 20 years ago this was un heard of. I think this is more of a business practice/principle that have enered into the running of a martial art business/school.

3) Why so much infighting? We're human :) , we've been taught the best by the best and you haven't. We teach the real thing, it's my way or the highway etc. etc. This goes on in any martial art ITF, WTF, Japanese system (you name it), FMA etc. etc. And again I come back to the setting yourself apart from the majority of other schools as a business practice that you teach the special deal, the real true art, etc. etc. as a way to expand your business so you set yourself apart from the JKDC or the OJKD (whichever camp you are in).

4) I agree with you here, most people don't care when they walk in the door, it isn't till much later in the intermediate ranks, after you have invested time and money that people start to care about JKDC or OJKD. I really like the JKDI term though. Because probably 90% of the people out there really fall into this catorgory, myself included.

With respect
Mark
 
Thanks guys...

My instructor is a real quality guy and his teaching is first rate. It is actually his web site. I count myself as real lucky. Plus...the thing that is really cool is that he constantly trains with his teachers in order to bring us the hard core facts as to what JF-Gung Fu should be as well as the latest conceptual teachings from JKD. There is no resting on his laurels and saying that he has trained with so and so. He says he TRAINS with so and so because he constantly updates his skills and stays current with some of the top instructors of the JKD community.

Back to the topic at hand... When some one comes to the school, They get an idea of what my instructor can do and teach by his certifications on the wall. When I first walked into the school...the certificates weren't what impressed me. It was the fact that he didn't walk around calling himself grand master or some other nonsense and that his teaching style was phenominal. He taught in a way that made you soak up his material and he kept his authority over the group while making everyone feel like a peer. Great guy with skills to boot.

Thanks for the minute...
Walt
 
Mark, I am going to start a new thread and ask the question are you JKDI? Thanks for the idea. JB
 
A JKD certificate would be worth nothing to me. I believe that Bruce Lee never intended for them to be given out as if JKD were a style. He said "to wipe the name out" if it were becoming a style that way. In my opinion, JKD is becoming a style, with it's levels as a ranking system up to black sash, and it has you doing certain techniques in a certain way. I think Bruce wanted everyone to come up with there own JKD, like he said, do what works for you, have no style. He wanted to be "the finger pointing away to the moon" not the moon itself. Therefore, JKD orginizations do not follow Bruce's philosophy. They make you do things their way to acheive levels. I've watched the World JKD Federation training videos enough to know this.

This is just my opinion, but I really feel Bruce didn't want it that way. I've written 4 papers on him and his philosophy for different classes and for my black belt. Through my research, that's just what I have come to understand and feel he might want.

Rebecca
 
Good work Rebecca! A lot of people share your opinion.
 
Very cool insights Rebecca.

The other thing to consider is the people who actually trained with Bruce. Guys like Dan Inosanto who are toted by many as being a person of integrity that studied with Lee. They still teach JKD / Jun Fan Gung Fu with and without inovation. Those that focus on the no style as style philosophy miss the point. They get so wrapped up in the water is formless debate that they forget that even an ocean has a surface and a submerged side. If there was nothing to contain the water then it would be just floating in the air or out in space. In order for it to be usefull it has to adopt some form or shape. And if you do not do some type of formatted training, then does that mean you should be applying the techniques in a different method every time you train?

Dont know about you, but I like the jab-cross theory. Put up a person who trains a different way every day ( average kung fooligan) versus say, a boxer, who trains the same five techniques every day, 365. I'll put my money on the boxer because his stuff is geared to work versus the fooligan who might have memorized the action but has no expereince training it to work.

The long and short of it is that these arguments hve been hashed and rehashed a thousand times ( including on the school message board that I run for the JKD school I go to). We know that one aspect of Lee's theory was meant to stay a theory and one aspect was the stuff that he actually practiced... But if we say that he practiced something then that means he had to categorize it and repeat it...other wise it wouldn't be practice.

The bad part about an argument like this is that it can go on forever without either side making head way. Formless, yes. Methods of practice ...yes. Forms...despite what people say... Yes ( to a degree). What's the peice of paper worth...? Only the individual can decide. But when i walk into a school and they say, "we teach JKD concepts" and I ask where they learned it...If they say they pulled it out of a book...then i am out the door. If they say that what they are teaching is the scientific departure of forms in favor of function as taught by Bruce Lee... I might stay to see what they have to offer

Regards,
Walt
 
Well said, Walt. I am shure a lot of people agree.

JB
 
Hello, What is a JKD worth today? As a none JKD student,but looking around at today current martial arts, the enrollment won't be huge. Bruce Lee is history past and so is his style,(non-style). People change and follow what is new,notice BJJ ,so popular today,everyone wants to learn some form of it. I am not putting Bruce Lee or his JKD down. His contributions change many ways the people think of martial arts. Today martial artist wants the best stuffs,new things too. (not all). I had never experience JKD or ever saw it in any shape or form. I read alot about martials arts,but I am no expert. (little over 10 years of training,and still learning). Just my opinion and thoughts ( there are JKD schools in Hawaii)....Aloha
 
A Jeet Kune Do certificate to me really is not worth a dime. In fact neither is any of my black belt certificates in Karate, TKD, or my instructorship certs in Kali, Silat. I've come to find out that there is so much more for me to learn in the realm of martial arts that for me to try to sell the idea or principle to someone is obsurd. I do not teach for money. I work and go to school. My job and my career is my bread and butter not martial arts. Because like you have mentioned Mr. Bealey, making a living in martial arts is at best a low income or part time earned income at best. only the fortunate ones w/ abilities to create video's , write books, or travel the world away from their families to teach may earn a modest wage. Guys like Guro Inosanto and some of his followers are probably some of the more well to do as far as compensation is considered in the JKD family. However as its also been stated they diagnose JKD w/ other arts like Kali, Muay Thai, Savate, Kickboxing, Silat, Combat Fighting, BJJ etc...

I work in the Law Enforcement field and for me martial arts is a way of life, and a way of survival rather then a means of life to pay my bills. I teach Police Officers and other local MA instructors etc...I hav erecently decided to open a small training group to those in my area to expand on their existing training. My compensation for instruction right now is really minimal if any at all.. As for certification and JKD only in my opinion if you don't have certification from a direct lineage of Inosanto, Kimura, Lee, it wouldn't be that legit anyway. (take that for what its worth) and I appologize if anyone disagrees but JKD is a philosophy, expression, not a system to pass rank or earn a living from.. Bruce only began giving certs out from what I understand in the final end of his teaching only because the students wanted some form of recognization of their training. thats why belts and certificates have made it in the martial arts for so long. People want to know they have excelled some way. Just like going to college how many people would go to college if they didnt get a certificate or degree to show employers their excellence?

It's all a dog and pony show.

BTW Mr. Beasly why do you carrie the title of DR. ? (just curious)

CB
 
IMAA,
Earned doctorate in Education (Ed.D.) from VA Tech, Virginia's largest university, in 1980. The title of my dissertation was " Contemporary Karate: An Examination of the Social Relations and Group Configurations in a Modern Day Adaptation of the Ancient Asian Martial Arts". My interest was in examining how martial arts in general, not just karate, have developed in the US since the 1950's. Much of the info can be seen in my new book "Mastering Karate" (human kinetics publishers)www.aikia.net. I have a chapter on how Bruce Lee developed JKD and the significance of the JKD philosophy on the development of modern martial arts training. I am a professor of Exercise, Sport and Health Education at Radford University (www.Radford.edu) where we have a major concentration in Sport Studies:Martial Arts. Let me add that I do not teach JKD as an art or style. I am only interested in the JKD philosophy and how it can be applied to general martial arts practice.
According to trade publications martial arts professionals can make high incomes as owners/operators/instructors of karate and taekwondo schools. There is also interest in mixed-style martial arts. JKD does not appear to be an art that can be easily taught. And judging by the results of this thread is profitable only to a select few individuals. Still JKD is fun and interesting for many. Thank you for your input.
 
Could you not classify a JKD school as a mixed-style martial arts school? --All arts welcome, keep what works for you, throw away what doesn't-- In that kind of environment, you'd think the more knowledge available in a variety of arts, the better. By pushing that aspect of JKD, maybe you'd attract more students in today's MMA-driven market.
Ugh. I feel dirty talking about marketing and martial arts in same paragraph...
wink3.gif
 
captnigh said:
Could you not classify a JKD school as a mixed-style martial arts school? --All arts welcome, keep what works for you, throw away what doesn't-- In that kind of environment, you'd think the more knowledge available in a variety of arts, the better. By pushing that aspect of JKD, maybe you'd attract more students in today's MMA-driven market.
Ugh. I feel dirty talking about marketing and martial arts in same paragraph...
wink3.gif
Click to expand...
And thats why JKD is so looked down upon today. Because people think JKD is just a mix of what works, but it is not.
 
I did not mean to over simplify Bruce Lee's art. I hope I did not insult anyone with my post.

I think maybe my understanding of Jeet Kune Do is not complete-- I've only read books and seen videos and documentaries. Not having received formal instruction by someone close to Lee, I'm sure I'm "in the dark" to say the least....

But am I incorrect in thinking one facet of JKD is absorbing techniques that work for me from my studies in various arts? Any insight is greatly appreciated....
 
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