What exactly defines a modern martial art vs traditional martial art?

[Flying Crane]

I been thinking about uploading another bagwork video because I have improved exceptionally since my last one. I wish it had my foot placement in it though. I am able to generate a lot of power with raising the heel and wanted to compare it to if I had not.

But I guess that would produce inconclusive evidence since I am so accostumed to raising the heel. So naturally inmay be better at punching that way than any other way.

It is also really easy to get the full-body connection wrong. Everybody believes they are doing it. From what I've seen, most people get it wrong. There are very slight disconnections that undermine the whole thing and it just becomes an arm punch. But everyone believes they delivered with the whole body. It's a simple thing really, but very easy to get it wrong.

So those issues could undermine your attempts, and you may not even be aware of it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's more stable and drives the power better, if you have you body-connection done correctly. It's less mobile, but everything is a compromise.

I think you will find all martial arts are technique driven.

Definitely not a tma/whatever separation.

I agree with that. it's definitely not a TMA thing only. I would expect a TMA school to go over board with the perfection of the technique before many of the modern martial art schools. I would expect a modern MA art school to not care about technique sooner than a TMA. For example, the Wing Chun group on this site will have battles over technique. In Jow Ga we don't have battles like that but we can Identify schools and lineages by looking at techniques. And while we may have opinions on correct techniques in our system, we won't get into a battle about it. For example, Maryland Jow Ga school steps the lead leg out when doing the reverse punch. The Virginia school will step the rear leg out when doing the reverse punch. In one of our forms, the Virginia school uses a grab where we use a hook. These differences may cause a little friction that last only 20 seconds.

I don't think I've ever seen the technique wars as bad as what I saw from the Wing Chun practitioners here.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I am able to generate a lot of power with raising the heel and wanted to compare it to if I had not.

It depends on when your fist hits an object, whether you want to transfer the "counter force" through your back foot and back into the ground or not. In the superman punch example, the whole counter force has to be taken by your own body. IMO, it's similar to "front kick" and "jumping front kick".

 

[drop bear]

I agree with that. it's definitely not a TMA thing only. I would expect a TMA school to go over board with the perfection of the technique before many of the modern martial art schools. I would expect a modern MA art school to not care about technique sooner than a TMA. For example, the Wing Chun group on this site will have battles over technique. In Jow Ga we don't have battles like that but we can Identify schools and lineages by looking at techniques. And while we may have opinions on correct techniques in our system, we won't get into a battle about it. For example, Maryland Jow Ga school steps the lead leg out when doing the reverse punch. The Virginia school will step the rear leg out when doing the reverse punch. In one of our forms, the Virginia school uses a grab where we use a hook. These differences may cause a little friction that last only 20 seconds.

I don't think I've ever seen the technique wars as bad as what I saw from the Wing Chun practitioners here.

See i would have still said that was ritual.

Especially if it is one specific method that everybody adheres to.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is also really easy to get the full-body connection wrong. Everybody believes they are doing it. From what I've seen, most people get it wrong. There are very slight disconnections that undermine the whole thing and it just becomes an arm punch. But everyone believes they delivered with the whole body. It's a simple thing really, but very easy to get it wrong.

So those issues could undermine your attempts, and you may not even be aware of it.

The nice thing about the TMA is the TMA has a "guideline" that if in your training, you always coordinate your

- hand with your foot,
- elbow with your knee,
- shoulder with your hip,

it will be very difficult to develop a bad habit that you only punch from your arm only. Not sure whether the modern MA use this "guideline" or not.

I like to

- stand in front of my heavy bag,
- freeze my arm and shoulder,
- just punch on my heavy bag from my back leg pushing down to the ground along with hip and body rotation.

This way, my arm is not doing the punch but my body is.

 

[paitingman]

I think you will find all martial arts are technique driven.

Definitely not a tma/whatever separation.

I would agree.

My proposal is that a big part of the progress or modernization in martial arts is the increase in athletic abilities and knowledge today.

All martial arts aim to develop techniques.
but techniques X, Y, and Z are really only high percentage against someone maybe weaker, slower, or not fully resisting. should we keep trying to do them the same way? for traditions sake maybe.
To me modernizing is tweaking, improving, or leaving things behind in light of what fighters and athletes can do today.

 

[Jenna]

@Ironbear24, @Buka, @Steve, @Bill Mattocks, @Flying Crane, @Tony Dismukes, @JowGaWolf.. hey all.. some very concise and clear points in all of this.. can I take what I reckon from what you are saying and try to join some of it up or find what is common to all?? thoughts appreciated..

Like maybe could we consider an art is traditional if it focus more on the traditional WAY and pay less attention to our 21st century modern CONTEXT, executing techniques in something of a vacuum of the time period from which it originated? So then a modern MA, could that be one which is practiced specifically to be deployed in 21st century context maybe? Like we may deploy our art differently now than would our predecessors 100 years ago, let alone 500 years ago right?

So then could we define an art as TMA or modern MA by the reality for which it trains its adherents? Like I mean if its techniques can be applied effectively in 21st century then can we say is a modern MA irrespective of its traditional lineage perhaps? Conversely, if its techniques rely upon attacks or defence that are atypical of 21st century then can we say it veer closer in categorisation to TMA?

@Buka was asking about individuals.. So like I practice Aikido. I think it have a TMA mindset.. what is that? well you know it have an formal dojo etiquette, moreover though it rely upon certain technical dependencies both in attack and defence that do not always equate to what I have encountered in my reality so I have made alterations.. Philosophically I practice pure Aikido it is the traditional way of peace and -was a person so inclined to suit their mood- could be traceable to Buddha or antecedent vedic texts.. there is no more TMA than those whose philosophy spring from prehistory.. whatever. Many other arts could also be traceable were it to suit the person doing the tracing.. Technically however, I practice a bastardised version of an 100yr old art designed for a time that is now historical. While some things cannot change, many no longer can be applied the same way 1930 and 2016 with same result.. Still, the TMA philosophy will always apply and centres the practitioner not the technique. The manner in which techniques are deployed to be successful C21st are therefore in some cases dissimilar to how they were originated 100 yr ago. So what is Aikido defined as? it have a TMA mindset and "way" of things and pure Aikikai authorised technique is encroaching on 100yr old.. To me that is traditional. However, I cannot help think what I my self practice is then a modern MA. Would any one else view the practice of their art in that way?? so like the definition TMA or modern MA then follows from how you as an individual practice your art rather than the definition of the art being imposed upon you externally?? is that more clear or more messy?? pffft.. It is some shades of gray right??

Also am I right in thinking that TMA is often perceived by the layman as some how "superior" having a long established lineage? And likewise modern MA is seen as more "effective" through its streamlining efficiencies that eschew the paraphernalia of traditional technique or "WAY" so it just gets the job done better?? Are those perceptions plausible?? And if so then do those layman perceptions out there in the world maybe hamper attempts at clarifiying the definition of TMA or modern MA? Hmm.. Any mileage in these points here maybe?? What you reckon?? I am grateful Jx

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would agree.

My proposal is that a big part of the progress or modernization in martial arts is the increase in athletic abilities and knowledge today.

All martial arts aim to develop techniques.
but techniques X, Y, and Z are really only high percentage against someone maybe weaker, slower, or not fully resisting. should we keep trying to do them the same way? for traditions sake maybe.
To me modernizing is tweaking, improving, or leaving things behind in light of what fighters and athletes can do today.

what I'm learning is that the advanced kung fu techniques are high percentage techniques we used correctly and at the right time. before I used to try and pick the technique that I want to use. Now it seems like my opponent is the one that picks the technique for me by attacking in a certain manner. if my opponent doesn't attack in a way that allows me to use the technique that I want to use then I should just use the technique that fits.

I think our assumption of one technique being of a lower percentage is a reflection of our limited knowledge and under standing of when we can and should use the technique. If the technique is truly useful according to the system then we just have to train hard and actually try to understand multiple applications for a technique. we may have to get hit in the face a couple of times but eventually we'll get to they point where we truly under stand the technique
For one of my advanced techniques I learned that it works better after a parry, but in school we don't train it that way and our sifu never told us any other application of the technique. in school is taught as a punch but in application it works as a block and punch at the same time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Ironbear24, @Buka, @Steve, @Bill Mattocks, @Flying Crane, @Tony Dismukes, @JowGaWolf.. hey all.. some very concise and clear points in all of this.. can I take what I reckon from what you are saying and try to join some of it up or find what is common to all?? thoughts appreciated..

Like maybe could we consider an art is traditional if it focus more on the traditional WAY and pay less attention to our 21st century modern CONTEXT, executing techniques in something of a vacuum of the time period from which it originated? So then a modern MA, could that be one which is practiced specifically to be deployed in 21st century context maybe? Like we may deploy our art differently now than would our predecessors 100 years ago, let alone 500 years ago right?

So then could we define an art as TMA or modern MA by the reality for which it trains its adherents? Like I mean if its techniques can be applied effectively in 21st century then can we say is a modern MA irrespective of its traditional lineage perhaps? Conversely, if its techniques rely upon attacks or defence that are atypical of 21st century then can we say it veer closer in categorisation to TMA?

@Buka was asking about individuals.. So like I practice Aikido. I think it have a TMA mindset.. what is that? well you know it have an formal dojo etiquette, moreover though it rely upon certain technical dependencies both in attack and defence that do not always equate to what I have encountered in my reality so I have made alterations.. Philosophically I practice pure Aikido it is the traditional way of peace and -was a person so inclined to suit their mood- could be traceable to Buddha or antecedent vedic texts.. there is no more TMA than those whose philosophy spring from prehistory.. whatever. Many other arts could also be traceable were it to suit the person doing the tracing.. Technically however, I practice a bastardised version of an 100yr old art designed for a time that is now historical. While some things cannot change, many no longer can be applied the same way 1930 and 2016 with same result.. Still, the TMA philosophy will always apply and centres the practitioner not the technique. The manner in which techniques are deployed to be successful C21st are therefore in some cases dissimilar to how they were originated 100 yr ago. So what is Aikido defined as? it have a TMA mindset and "way" of things and pure Aikikai authorised technique is encroaching on 100yr old.. To me that is traditional. However, I cannot help think what I my self practice is then a modern MA. Would any one else view the practice of their art in that way?? so like the definition TMA or modern MA then follows from how you as an individual practice your art rather than the definition of the art being imposed upon you externally?? is that more clear or more messy?? pffft.. It is some shades of gray right??

Also am I right in thinking that TMA is often perceived by the layman as some how "superior" having a long established lineage? And likewise modern MA is seen as more "effective" through its streamlining efficiencies that eschew the paraphernalia of traditional technique or "WAY" so it just gets the job done better?? Are those perceptions plausible?? And if so then do those layman perceptions out there in the world maybe hamper attempts at clarifiying the definition of TMA or modern MA? Hmm.. Any mileage in these points here maybe?? What you reckon?? I am grateful Jx

One technique can have multiple applications. Techniques, at least in kung fu,have never been of such where it could only be deployed in one way against one tips of attack or defense. The same technique that I use to block a kick can be used to strike the knee of the kicking leg, or strike the knee of the person in a fighting stance.the same technique can be used to block a low punch or to strike the ribs. Maybe the method of teaching had more influence of something being traditional. modern martial arts seem to advance students faster that in a TMA. TMAs seem to drill until there is understanding of a technique that goes beyond what a teacher shows. A teacher may show only one application then watch to see if you truly understand by Whitby to see if you can figure a second application on your own.

 

[Hyoho]

I cannot speak for arts other than Japanese but having taught/practiced both Budo and Kobudo in Japan for most of my life I would define traditional arts as not having a Dan-i belt system. Sadly even in the West some associations find themselves having to do gradings to keep the membership happy.

I would not stress lineage in TMA too much but do consider obligation to ones teacher to be of the greatest importance. This is what makes lineage what it is, rather than go off and do your own thing purporting to have created a 'new lineage'.

 

[Steve]

I would not stress lineage in TMA too much but do consider obligation to ones teacher to be of the greatest importance. This is what makes lineage what it is, rather than go off and do your own thing purporting to have created a 'new lineage'.

This is a very timely statement. In BJJ right now (and I suspect BJJ is not unique) a lot of people are trying to make a living. You can make a modest living teaching BJJ, but in order to compete with larger organizations, such as Gracie Barra, you need to either align with another affiliation or really develop your own brand.

 

[Hyoho]

Yet another difference would be that fact that the only people that made a living from TMA were after Meiji Era when the started to use the word Soke (headmaster). Nowadays if anything you are putting a lot of your own money in to keep things alive as they are not association run schools. On the contrary the association needs the schools to exist.

 

[Ironbear24]

@Ironbear24, @Buka, @Steve, @Bill Mattocks, @Flying Crane, @Tony Dismukes, @JowGaWolf.. hey all.. some very concise and clear points in all of this.. can I take what I reckon from what you are saying and try to join some of it up or find what is common to all?? thoughts appreciated..

Like maybe could we consider an art is traditional if it focus more on the traditional WAY and pay less attention to our 21st century modern CONTEXT, executing techniques in something of a vacuum of the time period from which it originated? So then a modern MA, could that be one which is practiced specifically to be deployed in 21st century context maybe? Like we may deploy our art differently now than would our predecessors 100 years ago, let alone 500 years ago right?

So then could we define an art as TMA or modern MA by the reality for which it trains its adherents? Like I mean if its techniques can be applied effectively in 21st century then can we say is a modern MA irrespective of its traditional lineage perhaps? Conversely, if its techniques rely upon attacks or defence that are atypical of 21st century then can we say it veer closer in categorisation to TMA?

@Buka was asking about individuals.. So like I practice Aikido. I think it have a TMA mindset.. what is that? well you know it have an formal dojo etiquette, moreover though it rely upon certain technical dependencies both in attack and defence that do not always equate to what I have encountered in my reality so I have made alterations.. Philosophically I practice pure Aikido it is the traditional way of peace and -was a person so inclined to suit their mood- could be traceable to Buddha or antecedent vedic texts.. there is no more TMA than those whose philosophy spring from prehistory.. whatever. Many other arts could also be traceable were it to suit the person doing the tracing.. Technically however, I practice a bastardised version of an 100yr old art designed for a time that is now historical. While some things cannot change, many no longer can be applied the same way 1930 and 2016 with same result.. Still, the TMA philosophy will always apply and centres the practitioner not the technique. The manner in which techniques are deployed to be successful C21st are therefore in some cases dissimilar to how they were originated 100 yr ago. So what is Aikido defined as? it have a TMA mindset and "way" of things and pure Aikikai authorised technique is encroaching on 100yr old.. To me that is traditional. However, I cannot help think what I my self practice is then a modern MA. Would any one else view the practice of their art in that way?? so like the definition TMA or modern MA then follows from how you as an individual practice your art rather than the definition of the art being imposed upon you externally?? is that more clear or more messy?? pffft.. It is some shades of gray right??

Also am I right in thinking that TMA is often perceived by the layman as some how "superior" having a long established lineage? And likewise modern MA is seen as more "effective" through its streamlining efficiencies that eschew the paraphernalia of traditional technique or "WAY" so it just gets the job done better?? Are those perceptions plausible?? And if so then do those layman perceptions out there in the world maybe hamper attempts at clarifiying the definition of TMA or modern MA? Hmm.. Any mileage in these points here maybe?? What you reckon?? I am grateful Jx

I guess the easiest way for me to comment on this is to explain what I have been accostumed too. My only martial arts experience has been mainly in two dojos, both kenpo mixed Judo dojos.

Walking into my first dojo felt kind of like walking into a sporting event. With medals and trophy's everywhere of the sifus accomplisments there was also lots of belts posted up of those who earned that rank.

There was also lots of gym equipment such as weights and a dressing room. It had wall to wall mirrors too. The place didn't really feel like a traditional dojo as I would picture it. Not until we began training anyway, every session began with us bowing upon setting foot on the mat and saluting once for each Dan ranking member who was present.

A palm over a fist was the salute. The sifu said it stood for kenpo protecting friends and family. Upon each rank up, we had to recite the kenpo creed.

"I come to you with only karate, empty hands. I have no weapon but should I be forced to defend myself, my family, friends or country.

Then here are my weapons. Karate, my empty hands."

The sifu would then kick the promoting student in the stomach where two people would then catch him or her so they would not fall over. The student is supposed to kiai to harden the muscles in the stomach to absorb the kick.

The kick still hurt but it hurt much less if I had not done this. There were many rituals and traditions and overall philosophy of what we did and why we did it. Are these all elements of TMA? Are they present in the more styles that are deemed "modern martial arts?" I do not know because kenpo and Judo and now escrima are all that I have known when it comes to training in.

Now my current dojo which is also Kenpo with Judo and now some Escrima. Feels like I time travel when I set foot in the dojo. We still bow and salute as we did in the first one I trained in, only now the building looks like something out of the final scene of enter the dragon.

The atmosphere screams MORTAL KOMBAT!!!!!. Every time I set foot inside. I honestly think it is a little cheesy but at the same time I think it is hardcore. I guess the culture is a major factor here is what I am trying to say. But I can't say I agree with their being these terms such as TMA and MMA because I am sure there are many kenpo dojos who do none of these traditions. As such would they be a TMA or not?

And would these dojos I mentioned above be considered TMA because of the fact they have these traditions and rituals?

 

[JowGaWolf]

The sifu would then kick the promoting student in the stomach where two people would then catch him or her so they would not fall over.

Perfect timing. This is funny to me, because yesterday. I was demonstrating, to a new student, the concept of why it's important to condition the stomach. Instead of me kicking him I told him to heel kick me in the stomach. He did and I used my stomach to make him fall backwards about 3 feet (would have been more if the other instructor wasn't behind him to catch him). I don't know if it's a ritual but for the TMA schools that I know of, all of them find importance of making sure students feel the end result of a kung fu technique done properly. This isn't a toughing type condition. It's one that is done to help understand the technique. Do Modern martial art schools do something similar?

 

[JowGaWolf]

And would these dojos I mentioned above be considered TMA because of the fact they have these traditions and rituals?

Are these traditions and rituals done as part of the martial art system throughout all schools or are they only done in your school?

 

[elder999]

I drive a car. I ride a motorcycle.

I also ride a horse. Great to have a couple along on an elk hunt.....though I could use a four-wheeler.
-meh-

 

[Ironbear24]

Are these traditions and rituals done as part of the martial art system throughout all schools or are they only done in your school?

I assume they are done in kenpo dojos because I have been to two, they both do them. I can't speak for all of them though.

Perfect timing. This is funny to me, because yesterday. I was demonstrating, to a new student, the concept of why it's important to condition the stomach. Instead of me kicking him I told him to heel kick me in the stomach. He did and I used my stomach to make him fall backwards about 3 feet (would have been more if the other instructor wasn't behind him to catch him). I don't know if it's a ritual but for the TMA schools that I know of, all of them find importance of making sure students feel the end result of a kung fu technique done properly. This isn't a toughing type condition. It's one that is done to help understand the technique. Do Modern martial art schools do something similar?

Whoa that's hardcore. And as far the modern arts question I do not know.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I drive a car. I ride a motorcycle.

I also ride a horse. Great to have a couple along on an elk hunt.....though I could use a four-wheeler.
-meh-

Yeah, but it that a Modern or Archaic type horse

 

[JowGaWolf]

Whoa that's hardcore. And as far the modern arts question I do not know.

I don't know if it was hardcore but it definitely makes it easier to understand techniques and why we do things the way we do. By him kicking me in the stomach he was able to understand 2 things right away.
1. I wasn't concerned about the possible pain that would come from the kick.
2. He got to experience first hand of how that conditioning allowed me to use a technique to throw him back 3 feet.

The biggest advantage is that 1 and 2 validate the technique. #1 is the confidence and trust that I personally put in my conditioning and in the technique. #2 is the validation that the technique works and that we aren't just making kung fu stuff up. You hear many times in Martial Talk that "Techniques need to be tested." In Jow Ga Schools, it's more important that techniques are experienced by students. This means there's no need to test a technique. If you were in a Jow Ga school and asked how a technique works, the Sifu or instructor will ask you to come to the front of the class. He will tell you to punch, kick, or to place your hand on him(grab, push, etc) and as soon as you do he will use the technique on you. It may hurt but you'll definitely have a better understanding of the technique, how it works, where exactly it's damaging, if the technique is throwing you off balance, did it pull you forward. There will be no doubt in your mind if it actually works or not. The other thing you will learn is that often times the harder you try to punch or kick the Sifu or instructor, the more pain you'll feel. The increase in pain isn't because he's using more force, it's because he's turning your force against you.

Many of the modern schools that I know of are against this type of teaching. They probably would consider it abuse. In cases of abuse the Sifu or instructor doesn't care about how much pain you may feel. I kicked our new student in the stomach yesterday just to give him a taste of our conditioning. The first thing I did was start off with a super light kick and told him to let me know if I should kick harder or lighter. He set his own level of what he wanted to feel.

 

[Balrog]

In my opinion both of these terms are ridiculous and further divide a community that should have no division in it. However I would like to know because my arts, kenpo karate and Judo have been called both TMA and MMA's.

My $0.02 worth, and I may be completely off base with this...

In my opinion, a traditional m.a. is concerned with the development of the student as a complete human being. There is strong emphasis on life skills and the avoidance of conflict whenever possible. In a "modern" m.a., it's all about whipping the other guy's *** into next week.