Modern Martial Arts vs. Traditional Martial Arts

arnisador

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Eric Daniel said:
The samurais did not nessecerely use jujutsu when they were disarmed. They did sometimes use jujutsu to deploy there sword and kill there enemy. For example, If there was a battle one on one and a samurai went for his sword, the opponent did not want to die so the opponent would grab the samurai's right hand or something of that sort. Because of this the samurai would have to use jujutsu to deploy there weapon.

The samurai tended to battle with halberds. The sword was a backup weapon.

I believe jujutsu was more for day-to-day use than battle.
 

James Kovacich

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Eric Daniel said:
Great link. THanks for the link. There was a lot of history about jujutsu.
You're welcome. If you're a traditional martial artist. Hanshi Alexander is at the top of the food chain and worth traveling to.
 

BlackCatBonz

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i think one of the mistakes is to assume that ju-柔 and ken-刀 were looked at as completely separate things. or that when the sword was drawn, all other methods were forgotten. if an opponent were to get in close enough i am sure a sweep, check, or kick of some sort was completely out of the question.
not to mention that not every guy carried a spear, and sometimes the sword they carried was a piece junk.
 

CuongNhuka

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mmm. from what i remember of a good book i read this is the deelio, yo yo [joke]. if the style is 70 years or more old, then it is tradtional. so in 30 years Coung Nhu (and i beleive Jeet Kune Do) will be 70 years old, and thus be traditional. i've also heard that if a style was made before 1882, it's traditional. anouther one is if it's before 1882 is classical, after 1882 and more then 70 years old it's traditional, and less then 70 it's modern. but it's really all a matter of oppoinin i suppose.
second. i have posted this on anouther place and got soom very nasty comments, but i'm going to post it again. and if you don't like it, well ohh well [trying to be funning].
an effectice style for "practical self defense" will contain at the very least the following 8 points.
1. hand strikes.
2. feet/knee/shin strikes.
3. grappling.
4. usige of the pockette stick, knive and any other commonly encoutered weapons.
5. disarms of the abouve mentioned weapons and the hand gun.
6. self defense against basic grabbs (like from some one trying to kid nap you)
7. being told when it is accetable to do what.
8. being taught how to talk your way out of a bad place.

the reasons for points one and two is that fights start while standing more or less always, so being able to fight from there is essential. point three is because accrding to police 90% of fights end on the ground (MMA fights refect this, but street fights, not so much).
points four and five is because on more then a few occasians in fights FOR REAL, NOT MMA FIGHTS you will find weapons. and if you would like to be able to deal with them, you should be able to get it out of there hands. and then what? stand around and look pretty? no, you cut there guts out if they take a step you don't like!! same idea with point 6.
point six is so that you learning not just how the hurt people, but when it's accetable. when you should talk your way out of a fight with some idiot, when to run, when to try to pin/lock, when to hit, when to break, and (most grimmly) when to kill. that is why for point 8. but that is some thing you can get from a book.
anouther good idea is a style with philosophy and/or meditiation. both help your abilty to reason and think. which are useful for when you have to defeand yourself. they also help with concentration anouther useful skill. a good effectice style should probably also have traditional aspects and sporting ones.
traditionalism builds skill with many aspects that aren't derictly appernit, which is why many people stop doing them. but with dojo chalenges being somewhat commen way back when, it must mean that what the folks back then were doing was either effective, or stopped existing. sporting aspects help build confidece and help you find out what it is that you are good at, and need to work on. and free style helps build corect reaction.
but don't hate stlyes that don't conatian these elements. almost every style does, just not derctly. and even if so, all things help. there are many paths up the mountian, but as long as you get to the top, it doesn't matter how you got there (buddha i think). i have to go, so i''l leave my response as is, but will run spell check either later today or early tomorrow. untill then appologises for my pour spelling and grammar.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade.

John
 

CuongNhuka

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o.k. my computer is being a bad word and wont let me edit, sorry.and after reading i have a few things to add. alot of you strated to talk about military fighting methods and those of jui jitsu. a common claim made by people is that everything done by the military is something useful/realistic/yadda yadda yadda. this is mostly true. a small problem is that they do knive, hand gun, and rifle self defense. odds of you being able to do that on a battle feild? more-or-less, it's not gonna happen. and anouther one they do thats somewhat laughable, bazuka defense. granted my knowldge of the military's tactics is limtided to stuff on the tube and from my freinds in the national gaurd and an MP, but they all agree that there is some form of defense against a big weapon, that you'll probably never be close enough to to use.
and many of you were posting on how jui jitsu is a last resort disarmed method. thats whats called a half truth and a whole lie. yes jui jitsu has many dis armed methods, techniques, principals, and so forth. but jui jitsu is a genaric term. any Japanese (not Okinawin) stlye, with a few exeptions. but these styles include ken jitsu (long sword method), kendo (way of the long sword), Iai jitsu (method of the fast draw), Iaido (way of the fast draw), hojo jitsu (method of a length of cord [called hojo]), So jitsu (spear method) Nagitana jitsu (long blade spear method [called Nagitana]) kyo jitsu (method of the bow and arrow), Kyodo (way of the bow and arrow), bo jitsu (method of the six foot stick [called bo]), Chigiriki jutsu (method a weighted chain on a stick [called Chigiriki]). and i could probably go on for ever, but that should give you anidea of how there is more then disarmed styles of Juijitsu. and one style (i don't know if you'd call it disarmed or not) is Kumi Uchi Ju Jitsu, what makes it unique? it's foucs is on graplling (and so is most of Jui Jitsu no weapon stuff, right?). well it does graplling with Japanese body armour on. if thats not unique then what is?
any ways, every style does stuff thats seems pointless. why have it then? becasue either know, in the past, or in the future it will be. know depending on were you are, and so forth it will affect why you would bother to do it. and Einstein acctuly believed that past present and future are all happening at the same time. any ways, my thoughts, comments, and the beleives of a dead nuclear phyicist, or what ever Einstein was.
well later folks.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John
 

The Kai

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BlackCatBonz said:
i think one of the mistakes is to assume that ju-柔 and ken-刀 were looked at as completely separate things. or that when the sword was drawn, all other methods were forgotten. if an opponent were to get in close enough i am sure a sweep, check, or kick of some sort was completely out of the question.
not to mention that not every guy carried a spear, and sometimes the sword they carried was a piece junk.

In the same way that once you draw a handgun, or a knife these days, your focus becomes the weapon. I don't think getting close enough to a guy with 3 feet of razor sharp steel was a great idea. Kicking at a guy with a blade? probably not the best idea
 

BlackCatBonz

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The Kai said:
In the same way that once you draw a handgun, or a knife these days, your focus becomes the weapon. I don't think getting close enough to a guy with 3 feet of razor sharp steel was a great idea. Kicking at a guy with a blade? probably not the best idea

todd, most of the guys that fought with swords were practically born with one in their hand. I imagine they would be pretty comfortable doing just about anything with one drawn. I guess that the 2 man Iai kata that contain techniques other than the ones with the shiny part of the blade were just thrown in for kicks.
Saying that they did nothing but hack and slash while they had the sword in hand is a pretty naive viewpoint.
jeez, historians say that medieval european knights would kick, smash with the pommel, beat each other with a shield.
 

The Kai

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Yes it is true that samurai were given weapons at birth, those that believed in kicking the sword were probably that infamous one legged clan. To think that you were going to disarm a katanna from a samurai, is a modern nativety.

A Western Broadsword is basically a club with a bit of a edge, yes you would use it in a vastly different manner
 
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both formats have thier place but, they'll come together or blend to complement each other, you'll become a cameleon when in competion or a compatable real life situation
 
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Eric Daniel

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Thanks for all the responses with a LOT of great information. I would just like everyone to know that there is a paper written by Shihan Tony Aneesi who is a 7th degree black belt in Aiki-Ju-Jutsu and the article is titled Traditonalism vs. Modernism and you can visit the link to read it. Please let me know what you think of this article.
http://bushido-kai.net/articles/docs/traditional_vs_modern.html

Sincerely, Eric Daniel
 

lenjee

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I don't think one martial art is better than another one either. I have a question that I have had trouble with for a couple weeks since I posted this topic:

How is a modern martial art determind and a traditional martial art determind, and how are they different? Are they di Are the Modern martial arts any more effective or better than traditional arts? What is your opinion?

icon_idea.gif
There are NO modern martial arts.

I have heard many times that modern martial arts are better than traditional martial arts for living in todays violent world. However, I disagree with this because ancient Martial arts like karate and jujutsu were made for combat on the battlefield.

What are your opinions??

Later, Eric
Do you think the two together are beneficiaries? Not KK, like other traditional styles. How would it be? I wanna go deeper into these types of views and stuff, so whats your view?
 

Dirty Dog

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Do you think the two together are beneficiaries? Not KK, like other traditional styles. How would it be? I wanna go deeper into these types of views and stuff, so whats your view?
Since that was posted 17 years ago, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to reply...

But the idea that MA were designed for battlefield use is... sketchy. Battlefields are weapon-based.
 

drop bear

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Since that was posted 17 years ago, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to reply...

But the idea that MA were designed for battlefield use is... sketchy. Battlefields are weapon-based.

Or numbers based. Which meant staying put was half the battle.
 

GojuTommy

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I don't think one martial art is better than another one either. I have a question that I have had trouble with for a couple weeks since I posted this topic:

How is a modern martial art determind and a traditional martial art determind, and how are they different? Are they di Are the Modern martial arts any more effective or better than traditional arts? What is your opinion?

icon_idea.gif
There are NO modern martial arts.

I have heard many times that modern martial arts are better than traditional martial arts for living in todays violent world. However, I disagree with this because ancient Martial arts like karate and jujutsu were made for combat on the battlefield.

What are your opinions??

Later, Eric
Traditional Martial art is a BS term.
Its used one of two ways.
1. People use it to disparage some arts
2. People use it to make them feel superior to others.

I saw someone try to differentiate kyokushin from traditional martial art karate
Like most modern martial arts are at least as old, historied, and traditional as traditional martial arts.
BJJ and Muay Thai compared to karate is a perfect example.

Edit
Todays violent world? Todays world is significantly less violent than the past.

Who ever told you karate was made for the battlefield has no clue what theyre talking about.
 

Denoaikido

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Also, what about arts like Aikido, which has only been around for a few decades, or taekwondo, for that matter which has only existed under it's current moniker since the fifties. In chronological terms, these could both be considered modern...but depending on the instruction can feel very "traditional"...
Good point both them arts I do as well as bjj with could be considered a tma given it's older then aikido or taekwondo
 

GojuTommy

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Good point both them arts I do as well as bjj with could be considered a tma given it's older then aikido or taekwondo
How does one even classify a martial art as modern?
Muay Thai is older than karate, but most people Ive spoken to consider it modern.
 

windwalker099

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How does one even classify a martial art as modern?

Wouldn't relate to the type of weapon technology, it was based on....
And the type of fighting common to the time....based on knowledge of them.

0s5425c5-1.jpg

Yang Luchan and Yang Banhou both worked as instructors for Shen Ji Ying 嚗蟡箄伐. Literally divine machinery garrison, an elite force specializing in firearms (canons, rockets, mortar in the beginning, later on also rifles) that had its origin in the previous Ming Dynasty, when firearms began to become practical battlefield weapons. Up to 30,000 strong during Qing Dynasty, it was a royal garrison that guarded the Forbidden City and traveled with the emperor. So it was one of the three most elite, trusted military units of Qing Empire.
 

windwalker099

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an interesting story... Illustrating the differences between that time and now..


During his many years of service with Su Qin Wang, Dong Haichuan spent about 10 years away from the palace, managing the princes large estate in Mongolia. During these years he was accompanied by his senior disciple Yin Fu. It was during this time the 64 Palm form was formalized. Many people believe Yin played an instrumental role in creation of that first form.

Later, when Dong moved out of Su Qin Wangs palace after retirement, martial artists flocked to him as he was basically inaccessible to them before. Many of these disciples were accomplished masters already, and Dong modified the training method according to what each student knows already. Dong also started to further systematize his art. Hence the first 64 Palm form later became known as Yin Style Baguazhang.

Dong and Yang were on very friendly terms, they were introduced to each other by Song Mailun, the head of the largest security company in the capitol, and great master of San Huang Paochui. Yang and Dong had one known encounter. It was at one of those huge garden restaurants popular in Beijing at the time. A large group of people were present at the party. At some point they got up and went outside to the garden, closing the doors behind them. When they came back after a while, both praised each others skill. Within Taijiquan circles, legend had it Yang said afterwards Dong was able to neutralize all of his attacks.


Another great master who also taught at Shen Ji Ying was Liu Shijun (憯思).
That was where he had the famous encounter with Yang Banhou: one day Yang Ban Hou came home, he was happy because he threw Xiong Xian Li (Lis nickname, he came from Xiong County). When Bauhou related the account to his father, Yang Luchan remarked, dont be too happy, it doesnt look like a clean victory.

Banhou was puzzled. Yang Luchan said Look under your armpits. Sure enough, there were holes under the armpits on Banhous robe. Liu Shijun, well-known master of eagle claw gongfu, could have caused him serious injury but obvious chose not to. Later that evening, Yang Luchan felt uneasy thinking about this, and quickly made his way to Liu Shijuns place.

Liu was already packing his belongings to leave the city, as per tradition. Yang persuaded him to stay, saying this encounter was but a casual crossing of hands, all the while praising Lius skill and character. After much persuasion, Liu finally agreed to stay and came to admire Yang. One of Lius most prominent disciples was Liu Dekuan (敺瑕祝), who went on to achieve even greater famous after studying with Dong Haichuan.

Yang Luchan, Dong Haichuan, Liu Shijun, Song Mailun, these were the premiere martial artists of the capitol city. These masters taught princes and elite soldiers that guarded the princes and emperors palaces. But they had no direct connection to the emperor or the royal crown prince. That would change with the next generation.
 

windwalker099

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Banhou was puzzled. Yang Luchan said Look under your armpits. Sure enough, there were holes under the armpits on Banhous robe. Liu Shijun, well-known master of eagle claw gongfu, could have caused him serious injury but obvious chose not to. Later that evening, Yang Luchan felt uneasy thinking about this, and quickly made his way to Liu Shijuns place.

What it highlights, the idea of method or style vs individual.

In this day and time, it seems like the most are training along the same lines using the same methods....Back then very different.

The method was thought to account for a large part of ones survival or not....

Wong Yin Lum was a master swordsman and master of Lion's Roar kung fu. He became a personal bodyguard, escorting rich families and dignitaries through southern China. At that time, bandit tribes ruled the countryside. He was known for his lightning speed and powerful hands. He was highly paid by those who wished to reach their destination alive. He came to be known as master Hop (Cantonese for Knight).

Wong Yin Lum is famous for challenging China's masters to join in a kung fu tournament. He had an open-air stage built in Canton to display his skills for prospective students. Wong Yin Lum planned to open a kung fu school and needed money. This would be the perfect arena to popularize his name. He also expected to make a lot of money wagering on the fights. For one week, he fought all challengers, defeating each opponent decisively.
 

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