What exactly defines a modern martial art vs traditional martial art?

[Kung Fu Wang]

If your style spars/rolls with each other - ...

May be "spars/wrestles" is better term. After all, the "rolling" is only part of the "wrestling" if you consider

wrestling = stand up wrestling + ground wrestling (rolling).

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wanted to try to figure this out, so I punched my uke with a traditional martial arts punch. He collapsed and fell to the floor. When he got up, punched him with a modern martial arts punch. He again collapsed to the floor.

I asked him, when he recovered, which hurt more. He said they were both the same. Looked the same, felt the same, same power, same pain.

Go figure.

I had the same scenario but different result. I had someone punch me in the stomach with force using what would be a regular and common punch that is taught. After the first punch I had him hit me much softer with a traditional punch. The traditional punch that I took to the stomach caused an injury that took a month to heal and the damage was done with arm motion than the first punches. The difference between the two punches is how the power was generated.

 

[drop bear]

So if I'm reading you correctly, you're not arguing for the typical "traditional martial art" vs "modern martial art" dichotomy, but rather for a distinction between modern and (historical? pre-modern?) arts, with the start of the 20th century being the cutoff point. "Traditional" would be an orthogonal concept which could apply or not apply to both modern and pre-modern arts. Is that the gist of it?

I don't have a real objection to that sort of classification, but it does leave the meaning of "traditional martial art" up in the air.

BTW - how would you classify something like Greco-Roman wrestling, which was developed in the 19th century? Modern or pre-modern? Traditional or not?

A tradition can be modern such as a gift every February.

And here we go back to the use of ritual.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If I do it, it is. I only have one way to punch. Maybe I call it TMA and someone else argues with me because Isshin Ryu is only 60 some odd years old. I shrug and say whatever. I punch, you get hit. It hurts a lot. What do you want to call it? TMA? Modern MA? Who cares?

Bill the fist that you make in your system is a traditional fist which is more than 60 years old. My guess would be because you make the fist with the thumb to the side, that your punching technique is also older than 60 years. Jow Ga uses the same fist that you showed me. Hung ga uses that same fist and Hung ga is older than Jow Ga. While both punches may hurt, one may be causing more damage than the other. The fist that you showed me actually aligns the bones in the hand differently than the more common fist that has the thumbed wrapped around the fingers.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Interesting example. Although Takeda claimed a 900 year history for Daito Ryu, there is no evidence that it existed at all before he began teaching it in the late 19th century.



Katori Shinto Ryu is one of the oldest martial arts in the world with a documentable continuous lineage. I think most folks would agree that it counts as traditional. However if we limit the use of "traditional" to arts in that sort of category, it's going to be a very short list.

I'm not knowledgeable enough on the history of Tai Chi to say anything definitive. I will note that Wikipedia says "The origin and nature of what is now known as tai chi is not historically verifiable until around the 17th century." Chen family tradition may claim a 16th century origin, but CMAs are pretty notorious for origin myths that don't necessarily match up to the actual history. I've also think I've read people suggest that some of the modern Chen approach to push hands - as more of a stand up wrestling competitive format than a flowing training exercise - isn't really traditional. (I've also seen people suggest the reverse.) I wonder if the historical documentation exists to confirm that one way or another.



Only in the same way that wrestling in the western world can be traced back millennia to ancient Greece. Wrestling has existed in just about every culture we know of - and since there are only so many ways for the human body to move we can find depictions of techniques which are more or less the same in different grappling arts separated by thousands of miles and thousands of years. That doesn't mean we can trace any sort of continuous tradition from the early Olympics in ancient Greece to modern Greco-Roman wrestling (actually developed in the 19th century) or from the "Jiao li" referenced in records from the Zhou dynasty to modern Shuai Jiao (which was named and had rules standardized in 1928).



I see your point, but it's worth noting that "sporting" forms of unarmed combat go back at least as far as "martial" forms, historically speaking.

I agree. But even those sporting had rules and developed in such a way where it's possible to do the sport multiple times without serious injury. Rules were also created to keep the "illegal techniques" from being used. Those same sporting events were often training arenas for soldiers and warriors and rights of passage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A tradition can be modern such as a gift every February.

And here we go back to the use of ritual.

Ritual seems to be a big characteristic of Traditional Martial arts. That expectation that something has to be done one way or it's not what is. Would valentines day still be considered valentines day if it were held in August and punches were given instead of gifts?

 

[Steve]

If I do it, it is. I only have one way to punch. Maybe I call it TMA and someone else argues with me because Isshin Ryu is only 60 some odd years old. I shrug and say whatever. I punch, you get hit. It hurts a lot. What do you want to call it? TMA? Modern MA? Who cares?

You punch the way you were taught to punch. And if you learn another way, you will have some choices. If you only know one way punch, you may not care. But you didn't say that. Instead, you shared a parable in which you suggest that all punches are the same, provided the effect is the same. That's just not correct.

As for whether one should care or not, really up to the individual. You ask who cares. I think at least the op does. Possibly a few others. Some people see a clear delineation between combat sports and classical arts. Some see a lot of value in differentiating between what they do and what others do.

If you don't care, more power to you. But that's not the same as saying that no one should care. As often as this topic comes up, clearly some people care.

 

[Steve]

I had the same scenario but different result. I had someone punch me in the stomach with force using what would be a regular and common punch that is taught. After the first punch I had him hit me much softer with a traditional punch. The traditional punch that I took to the stomach caused an injury that took a month to heal and the damage was done with arm motion than the first punches. The difference between the two punches is how the power was generated.

so, traditional punch is more effective than a modern punch? Is effectiveness then the measure of traditional? What's the takeaway here?

 

[Xue Sheng]

To be honest, IMHO, this is just another useless set of containers that we will argue about that does little to further training or understanding of martial arts.....take it for what it is worth.... Xue is out..peace

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

so, traditional punch is more effective than a modern punch?

Most of the modern MA guys will still punch on the heavy bag through their old age.

Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age. The following 2 clips show how Taiji guy and Baji guy punch. Please notice that both require about 1 second to "compress and release" before the power is generated.

If you put both of them in boxing ring and fight against boxer, since they won't have that 1 second power generation time, their punches will be just like the boxing punch. I believe the boxer's punch is more effective because they don't depend on that "extra power generation time".

 

[Flying Crane]

A tradition can be modern such as a gift every February.

And here we go back to the use of ritual.

Or simply a regular activity, like working on the heavy bag during every training session. But people don't tend to think of that kind of thing as a ritual or as "traditional". I think they tend to think more of things like special training uniforms and (possibly perceived as excessive) bowing, which things may still have relevance in the home culture in which the system was born.

I guess then anything can be traditional. If I get up in the morning and run 10km every day, that can become a tradition, especially if my son starts to do it with me, and eventually his son with him.

 

[Flying Crane]

Most of the TMA guys will only punch into the thin air through their old age.

You know this for a fact?

 

[Flying Crane]

The following 2 clips show how Taiji guy and Baji guy punch. Please notice that both require about 1 second to "compress and release" before the power is generated.

If you put both of them in boxing ring and fight against boxer, since they won't have that 1 second power generation time, their punches will be just like the boxing punch. I believe the boxer's punch is more effective because they don't depend on that "extra power generation time".

They "require" no such thing. Do you not understand the difference between a training methodology used to develop specific body mechanics and principles in technique, and how it may translate into a somewhat different morphology in actual application?

 

[Buka]

We should be able to figure this distinction out, there's enough of us on here. Combined experience would be measured in centuries.

I train American Karate, a completely non traditional Martial Art.

Any other takers?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We should be able to figure this distinction out, there's enough of us on here. Combined experience would be measured in centuries.

I train American Karate, a completely non traditional Martial Art.

Any other takers?

Isshin Ryu. For whatever it's worth, I consider it traditional martial arts.

 

[Ironbear24]

So what am I as an individual then? A traditional martial artist or a modern one? I am training kenpo along with Judo and some escrima.

I ask this because I have been called just about everything aside from a few bad words left in the human vocabulary. (Just give it time though, it will happen)

 

[Ironbear24]

Low percentage.

And i have trained that and even tried to pull it off in a fight.

The jjj version is the arm between legs comealong. It is reliant on the guy you are doing it on being a chump. You do it as a gag for someone you are fighting but are so much better than that you can muck around.

You trained in kenpo? I myself have never done this technique outside of practicing. I said before to another user that if I have their hand that there are many other and in my opinion better things I can do to my opponent with control of their wrist. I can use many Judo techniques for example or I can simple hang on to it and make them unable to back away from my sidekick to the ribs. The biggest no no of the technique here is the last part I would say. I can see the first part working but why bother when there are safer things? Maybe this technique was designed to fight idiots idk, I didn't make it.

How many arts have you trianed in? As a fellow bear I am interested in your history in the arts.

 

[JowGaWolf]

so, traditional punch is more effective than a modern punch? Is effectiveness then the measure of traditional? What's the takeaway here?

Depends on the type of punch and the context of that punch. Is it with boxing gloves on or off. Is it a jab? How far is the punch from the target? When it comes to having a focus on effectiveness and efficiency, I think TMAs are super focused almost to a fault.

I think my Hung ga punching techniques of creating a fist would be useless if I had to fight with boxing gloves on. Which in that case those traditional techniques (which weren't made to be used with gloves) would probably hurt me more than help me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you not understand the difference between a training methodology used to develop specific body mechanics and principles in technique, and how it may translate into a somewhat different morphology in actual application?

Yes! I'm a TMA guy, and I do not understand why there should be any difference between "training" and "application".

I have always believed in "Train as I fight". If I always punch from on guard position", that will be the way I train.

I will never train how to punch from my waist.

 

[Buka]

To the Tae-Kwon-Do guys, is TKD a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kenpo guys, is Kenpo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wing Chun guys, is Wing Chun a traditional Martial Art?

To the Kung Fu guys, is Kung Fu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, is BJJ a traditional Martial Art?

To the Aikido guys, is Aikido a traditional Martial Art?

To the Judo guys, is Judo a traditional Martial Art?

To the Wrestlers, is Wrestling a traditional Martial Art?

To Capoeira practitioners, is Capoeira a traditional Martial Art?

To the Boxers, is Boxing a traditional Martial Art?

To the Uechi guys, Is Uechi-ryu a traditional Martial Art?

To the Tai-Chi guys, is Tai-Chi a traditional Martial Art?

To everyone on this forum, is YOUR art a traditional Martial Art?

Whatever you train, please chime in. Help us out here. If you train more than one Art, great, but is each Art a traditional Martial Art or what? I mean, who would know more about your art than you?