What do you include in your TKD?

[Kong Soo Do]

I've seen quite a bit of good discussion lately on what and how various arts teach in their curriculum. I thought it would make for an interesting thread in regards to the specifics of your TKD curriculum. TKD of course has various organizations of varying size and focus. And of course we have many independent dojangs and those that could be considered hybrid with other arts as well.

• What is the focus of your particular dojang and/or organization to which you may belong (Are you more oriented towards a sport focus or towards self-defense or is there a mix)?
• Is your dojang considered by you and/or the instructor as strictly TKD or is it a hybrid with something else (and if so, what).
• Do you include things like locks, chokes, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendons, sealing the breath or arteries?
• Do you feel your TKD is complete? Would there be something you'd add (or delete) if you could?
• What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning?

Thank you in advance.

 

[MAist25]

Pretty good idea for a thread.

I train at 2 schools so I'll give the breakdown for each place because they are both very different schools.

School 1:
I have been training at my first TKD school for over 6 years now and received my 1st and 2nd Dan there both in Moo Duk Kwan and Kukki Taekwondo. This school is very traditional and very tough. We focus on mastering basics and dont focus at all on sport, with the exception of the kids, which we encourage tournament participation. For the adults, we dont look like a kukki TKD school at all and are very loosely affiliated with them. Our curriculum comes directly from Grandmaster Richard Chun and a more traditional practice of the art. We do consider ourselves mostly TSD/TKD but also add elements of Hapkido as well. We do teach a wide variety of takedowns, throws, locks, chokes, etc. Much more than any other TKD school I've seen. This school is a very complete school with a great balance between hand and foot techniques, in-close techniques, sparring with some pretty hard contact which allow takedowns, and traditional forms. As for conditioning we do train pretty hard. Lots of body-weight exercises and medicine ball workouts as well as a good amount of cardio.

School 2:
This is strictly a Kukki Taekwondo school and is more sport oriented. We spar using the WTF ruleset and wear all of the WTF gear, which we never had in my old school. I have been training there for a year and it is extremely kicking oriented. We spar usually once a week and the classes are much more focused on perfecting technique rather than constantly sparring, which can be good or bad. We do a lot of work on the kicking paddles and kicking shields, as well as practice poomsae and 1 steps. This school is geared into throwing multiple kicks and speed, while my other school (school 1) is more closely related to the Shotokan idea of taking your opponent out with one shot and focusing on power. This school does teach some locks and such but not very many. This school is not as complete as my other one but my kicks are improving a lot by training here and it gives me another skillset to add to my TKD training. As for conditioning, we do some conditioning but the workouts are much more cardio-based than strength-based.

 

[Cyriacus]

In order:

-Self Defense.
-Strictly TKD.
-We include Locks, Chokes, Throws, Balance Displacement, and various other things.
-I feel it is.
-We do Body Conditioning, mostly to the Striking Tools.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

• What is the focus of your particular dojang and/or organization to which you may belong (Are you more oriented towards a sport focus or towards self-defense or is there a mix)?

In two words: Personal Development.

To quote my KJN (bolded for emphasis): "This is our school of physical fitness that teaches us the scientific art of Tae Kwon Do. In this age
of turmoil, it is important that one maintain a strength within ones self (mental strength as well as physical strength) so that one can cope with obstacles and difficulties in life more successfully.

We sincerely hope that this school will serve you as an important institution where you can learn various virtues of the martial arts that include self-discipline, respect, concentration and competition. Finally, the instruction at Kang's Tae Kwon Do School is constantly directed toward that attainment of inner peace and tranquility within ones self, which we hope will help us to develop harmony and peace with our fellow man." ~Grandmaster Sok Ho KANG

We are not competition focused, as we only compete in a hand full of competitions each year. You gain self-defense skills, although, IMO, it is a part of training not the focus of it.

Moo Duk Kwan: School of Martial Virtue. This is not the western virtue, but eastern virtue.

Not this virtue:
[h=2]vir·tue[/h]   [vur-choo] Show IPA
noun 1. moral excellence; goodness; righteousness.

2.conformity of one's life and conduct to moral and ethical principles; uprightness; rectitude.

3.chastity; virginity: to lose one's virtue.

4. a particular moral excellence. Compare cardinal virtues, natural virtue, theological virtue.

5. good or admirable quality or property: the virtue of knowing one's weaknesses.


Duk is a Daoist concept, referring to virtue or ability for one to realize his/her own potential. Duk, or De in Chinese, is a subtle concept that is difficult to grasp in western society. The Chinese text, Doadejing, explains that De (Duk) is the sum of all power that is inherent in each individual that can be realized through the way (Dao / Do). Duk can also be described as the active, living, or cultivation of “the way” (Do). One of my seniors compares this concept to a “virtuoso,” a virtuoso does not play a violin from reading music, but rather plays through from his soul/heart. He realizes his innate potential, this is the concept of Duk.
Moo Duk (Wude in Chinese) is a term used in Buddhist teachings that deals with two aspects; “morality of deed” and “morality of mind.” Morality of deed concerns social relations, and morality of mind is meant to cultivate the inner harmony between the emontional mind and the wisdom mind. The ultimate goal is to reach “no extremity,” where both wisdom and emotions are in harmony with each other. This concept is closely related to the Daoist concept of wu wei (action through inaction).

• Is your dojang considered by you and/or the instructor as strictly TKD or is it a hybrid with something else (and if so, what).

TKD

• Do you include things like locks, chokes, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendons, sealing the breath or arteries?

Yes to all of the above.

• Do you feel your TKD is complete? Would there be something you'd add (or delete) if you could?

That is up to the individual, as our focus is personal development. You get out of it, what you put into it. As for a well rounded fight art, the only arena that we do not focus on is ground fighting (we do practice sweeps, throws, locks, etc. but we are primarily a striking art, and we'd rather stand up and fight than wrestle on the ground).

• What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning?

Not every class, although it is done from time to time. We advocate body training outside of the dojang so that we can focus our in class training time on other subjects.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Although we don't use the label of TKD as a specific indentifier, it does for a basis. In regards to the questions;

• What is the focus of your particular dojang and/or organization to which you may belong (Are you more oriented towards a sport focus or towards self-defense or is there a mix)? Purely self-defense.
• Is your dojang considered by you and/or the instructor as strictly TKD or is it a hybrid with something else (and if so, what). Old school TKD would be a possible indentifier (but it wouldn't be completely accurate within the context of the totality of the training offered), but hydrid would fit as well since we've incorporated various elements from other arts and systems into a simple and effective blend.
• Do you include things like locks, chokes, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendons, sealing the breath or arteries? All the above including gross motor response, adrenaline induced response (fight or flight & flinch response), CQC and real world grappling and real world ground defense, weapon and improvised weapons (including combat shooting) etc.
• Do you feel your TKD is complete? Would there be something you'd add (or delete) if you could? My KSD is as complete as I've been able to make it with the training that I currently have obtained. Like any good instructor, as I learn the art grows.
• What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning? Personally, body building, extreme pyramids. Everyone does hard body conditioning (age appropriate), body weight conditioning (functional) and dynamic tension.

 

[Gnarlie]

Although we don't use the label of TKD as a specific indentifier, it does for a basis. In regards to the questions;

• What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning? Personally, body building, extreme pyramids. Everyone does hard body conditioning (age appropriate), body weight conditioning (functional) and dynamic tension.

Kong Soo Do, just out of curiosity, can I ask what you mean by 'hard body conditioning'? I mean I understand what it is, but I'd like to understand what sort of exercises you still include, as in my experience some of the more 'old school' exercises have begun to fall by the wayside in favour of less taxing variants.

Thanks
Gnarlie

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Kong Soo Do, just out of curiosity, can I ask what you mean by 'hard body conditioning'? I mean I understand what it is, but I'd like to understand what sort of exercises you still include, as in my experience some of the more 'old school' exercises have begun to fall by the wayside in favour of less taxing variants.

Thanks
Gnarlie

We would do drills such as;

• kicking tires that were mounted to the wall. This would toughen the shins.
• Standing in a deep horse stance in front of each other, alternately striking the pectorial muscles and abdominals while the receiver would be tightening the muscles and focusing on breath control.
• Standing in a combat position in front of each other and performing side snap kicks into the inner and outer thighs and sides of the shin.
• Arm pounding i.e. hard punches and hard blocks from underneath, the sides and top of the arms.
• Arm rubbing i.e. in deep horse stance with partner, rubbing forarms in a back and forth sawing motion.
• Sanchin kata was particularly hard core training. For a video example http://excoboard.com/martialwarrior/148251/1781913
• Using various items in Sanchin stance such as weights or pots while in dynamic tension.
• Hard blocking 'punches' from a thick closet dowel.

This are situational and age-dependent of course. And you don't start out going nuts with any of it. You get out of it, like anything, what you put into it. I've done a lot of shin conditioning. Nothing to debilitate myself in my later years, but they are very tough. I had a TKD guy try to zing me with a full power side snap kick. Using what we call a wedge block, I took his shin on my shin. End result, I was giving him first aid from the bloody gash on his shin while I wasn't even bothered. Please note, not sounding like superman, I simply went through my aches and pains in earlier training so I could be the one standing when the time came. I could probably still take a good shot on the outside of the thigh...but it didn't start that way :uhyeah:

 

[Gnarlie]

Tough. I did stuff like this for a while with my previous KJN, but we couldn't sustain it because we had so many kids in the classes. Shame, I really benefitted. We still do certain exercises from time to time, like 'knocking', horse riding stance and blocking against each other, but it's really more for the feel of it than the results. I'd love to do more, but classes like this are few and far between nowadays.

 

[Archtkd]

I've seen `quite a bit of good discussion lately on what and how various arts teach in their curriculum. I thought it would make for an interesting thread in regards to the specifics of your TKD curriculum. TKD of course has various organizations of varying size and focus. And of course we have many independent dojangs and those that could be considered hybrid with other arts as well.

• What is the focus of your particular dojang and/or organization to which you may belong (Are you more oriented towards a sport focus or towards self-defense or is there a mix)?
• Is your dojang considered by you and/or the instructor as strictly TKD or is it a hybrid with something else (and if so, what).
• Do you include things like locks, chokes, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendons, sealing the breath or arteries?
• Do you feel your TKD is complete? Would there be something you'd add (or delete) if you could?
• What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning?

Thank you in advance.

I think we've seen these types of discussion several times. They are often camouflaged in one variant or another, but bear the same central thesis: bash taekwondo and especially expose the perceived weaknesses of those who practice, teach and lean toward WTF style sparring as part of their taekwondo practice. The discussions often sputter to a foggy end filled with exotic sounding terms and semantics, which are aimed at showing how "real" martial arts differ from – God forbid – that sport run by the Korean cabal.

What is "misplacing the bone/tendons," for example. What is "balance misplacement" and "cavity pressing,"? Aren’t all those strange sounding terms things that most of us taekwondoin learn, understand and teach can be achieved by mastering the staple roundhouse kick to the trunk? Yep. That roundhouse with an instep, which we see in WTF style tournaments or the one thrown with the ball of the foot will do all that. Oh, it will "seal the breath" too.

"Hard body conditioning?" Isn’t that what many of us in good taekwondo dojangs achieve through basic drills, exercises and sparring?

How about "chokes,", "locks" and "throws"? I think, many, many Kukkiwon and ITF style dojangs – even those with sparring teams – do something called self defense.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think we've seen these types of discussion several times. They are often camouflaged in one variant or another, but bear the same central thesis: bash taekwondo and especially expose the perceived weaknesses of those who practice, teach and lean toward WTF style sparring as part of their taekwondo practice. The discussions often sputter to a foggy end filled with exotic sounding terms and semantics, which are aimed at showing how "real" martial arts differ from – God forbid – that sport run by the Korean cabal.

I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder. No one has bashed anyone in this thread. No one has posted in a hostile manner...except you. This thread was specifically designed for people to discuss what they train in, what their focus is and the methods they use. And it seems people have been enjoying it. Lighten up and join the thread.

Peace.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder. No one has bashed anyone in this thread. No one has posted in a hostile manner...except you. This thread was specifically designed for people to discuss what they train in, what their focus is and the methods they use. And it seems people have been enjoying it. Lighten up and join the thread.

Peace.

I for one have yet to see you ever do anything especially provocative - You started this Thread due to a Discussion in another one. Thats all there ought be to it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I've seen quite a bit of good discussion lately on what and how various arts teach in their curriculum. I thought it would make for an interesting thread in regards to the specifics of your TKD curriculum. TKD of course has various organizations of varying size and focus. And of course we have many independent dojangs and those that could be considered hybrid with other arts as well.

• What is the focus of your particular dojang and/or organization to which you may belong (Are you more oriented towards a sport focus or towards self-defense or is there a mix)?
• Is your dojang considered by you and/or the instructor as strictly TKD or is it a hybrid with something else (and if so, what).
• Do you include things like locks, chokes, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendons, sealing the breath or arteries?
• Do you feel your TKD is complete? Would there be something you'd add (or delete) if you could?
• What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning?

Thank you in advance.

*our focus is self defence and almost everything we do has self defence/fighting in mind.
*our club is considered tkd with some hapkido mixed in. Although we do have a set curriculum, instructors are free to add their own 'flavour'. I have trained under three different instructors at our club. The first (6th dan) had ranking in hapkido and incorporated a lot of hapkido into his training, the second (6th dan) had a boxing background and did a lot of work on punching, and my current instructor (7th dan) has taught full time for 35-40 years and has incorporated many different elements from other arts into his tkd training. He also has a 5th dan student who is a high ranking police officer with a hapkido background and gets him to take a few classes here and there with regards to "what might happen on the street". I really enjoy his classes, he is a really nice bloke who has faced all sorts of bad stuff in his line of work and gives a great perspective to self defence training.
* Our self defence is largely left up to the individual instructor, although chokes, grabs, joint manipulation, break-falling are all part of the set curriculum. I would have to say our GM has a real passion for "balance displacement", when I have seen him teach (which is very rare these days due to old age) he constantly talks about balance and when/how to sense your opponent is off balance. Ive seen him do some demos and its quite impressive, he has a real feel for exactly where his opponents weight is centred, the second they are off balance he has them on the floor. Again the 'flavour' can change from instructor to instructor even though technically they teach the same thing. For instance, my previous instructor was right into throws and he ended many sequences with them. My new instructor teaches throws but generally advises against them.
*I wouldnt go as far as saying our training is "complete", due to the fact we do very little groundwork, but me, like others in class, arent really into groundwork so it doesnt really bother us. If I could change anything I would probably like class to go for an hour and a half instead of an hour.
*We have a set level of fitness and conditioning which is taught in all our classes and is of a medium to high level. My current instructor does go a bit over and above with fitness and conditioning, he really prides himself on his black belts and hates seeing one of his students get knocked down at grading by another instructor's student. For this reason, I knew when I started training with him that my fitness and conditioning would improve big time, and it did. He does a lot of core work, upper legs and stomach muscles cop a hiding, and he usually waits until we are screwed before he yells out "sparring, pad up!" This seems to consistent throughout the club, we do a lot of sparring once already exhausted, and once we are really out on our feet and grasping for air is usually when we do 2 or 3 on 1 sparring, so we are constantly trying to use our skills when already tired and sore. Im a fitness junkie (long distance running is my favourite past time), so I love this element to our training.

 

[mastercole]

I think we've seen these types of discussion several times. They are often camouflaged in one variant or another, but bear the same central thesis: bash taekwondo and especially expose the perceived weaknesses of those who practice, teach and lean toward WTF style sparring as part of their taekwondo practice. The discussions often sputter to a foggy end filled with exotic sounding terms and semantics, which are aimed at showing how "real" martial arts differ from – God forbid – that sport run by the Korean cabal.

What is "misplacing the bone/tendons," for example. What is "balance misplacement" and "cavity pressing,"? Aren’t all those strange sounding terms things that most of us taekwondoin learn, understand and teach can be achieved by mastering the staple roundhouse kick to the trunk? Yep. That roundhouse with an instep, which we see in WTF style tournaments or the one thrown with the ball of the foot will do all that. Oh, it will "seal the breath" too.

"Hard body conditioning?" Isn’t that what many of us in good taekwondo dojangs achieve through basic drills, exercises and sparring?

How about "chokes,", "locks" and "throws"? I think, many, many Kukkiwon and ITF style dojangs – even those with sparring teams – do something called self defense.

Excellent points. However, they would have to have actually experienced the Taekwondo training you are describing, but it is very clear from their many post, they have not, so they might not be able to understand you. Good try though.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think we've seen these types of discussion several times. They are often camouflaged in one variant or another, but bear the same central thesis: bash taekwondo and especially expose the perceived weaknesses of those who practice, teach and lean toward WTF style sparring as part of their taekwondo practice. The discussions often sputter to a foggy end filled with exotic sounding terms and semantics, which are aimed at showing how "real" martial arts differ from – God forbid – that sport run by the Korean cabal.

What is "misplacing the bone/tendons," for example. What is "balance misplacement" and "cavity pressing,"? Aren’t all those strange sounding terms things that most of us taekwondoin learn, understand and teach can be achieved by mastering the staple roundhouse kick to the trunk? Yep. That roundhouse with an instep, which we see in WTF style tournaments or the one thrown with the ball of the foot will do all that. Oh, it will "seal the breath" too.

"Hard body conditioning?" Isn’t that what many of us in good taekwondo dojangs achieve through basic drills, exercises and sparring?

How about "chokes,", "locks" and "throws"? I think, many, many Kukkiwon and ITF style dojangs – even those with sparring teams – do something called self defense.

I think this is a great thread, and a great way to learn about how other tkdists train, which is a large part of the reason I venture to sites like this. I will be the first to complain if any "style bashing" goes on, but from what Ive read everybody is just answering the question at hand. We are on a "tkd dicussion board" and we are discussing "the different/similar ways different people train in tkd", isnt that why we have places like this? I certainly dont feel there is any hidden agenda in a thread such as this.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Excellent points. However, they would have to have actually experienced the Taekwondo training you are describing, but it is very clear from their many post, they have not, so they might not be able to understand you. Good try though.

No, I havent trained in the tkd you are describing, so what better idea than to have a thread like this where we can discuss and learn the different training methods out there.

 

[Cyriacus]

I think we've seen these types of discussion several times. They are often camouflaged in one variant or another, but bear the same central thesis: bash taekwondo and especially expose the perceived weaknesses of those who practice, teach and lean toward WTF style sparring as part of their taekwondo practice. The discussions often sputter to a foggy end filled with exotic sounding terms and semantics, which are aimed at showing how "real" martial arts differ from – God forbid – that sport run by the Korean cabal.

What is "misplacing the bone/tendons," for example. What is "balance misplacement" and "cavity pressing,"? Aren’t all those strange sounding terms things that most of us taekwondoin learn, understand and teach can be achieved by mastering the staple roundhouse kick to the trunk? Yep. That roundhouse with an instep, which we see in WTF style tournaments or the one thrown with the ball of the foot will do all that. Oh, it will "seal the breath" too.

"Hard body conditioning?" Isn’t that what many of us in good taekwondo dojangs achieve through basic drills, exercises and sparring?

How about "chokes,", "locks" and "throws"? I think, many, many Kukkiwon and ITF style dojangs – even those with sparring teams – do something called self defense.

Hosinsul can often be worse than just not learning those things at all. Ive seen it done atrociously, and only ever seen one Dojang do it well. I used to Train there.
So in a way, this is kind of the opposite effect to what You desired, I suspect

I think this is a great thread, and a great way to learn about how other tkdists train, which is a large part of the reason I venture to sites like this. I will be the first to complain if any "style bashing" goes on, but from what Ive read everybody is just answering the question at hand. We are on a "tkd dicussion board" and we are discussing "the different/similar ways different people train in tkd", isnt that why we have places like this? I certainly dont feel there is any hidden agenda in a thread such as this.

Thats the only reason I venture to this Site exclusively to discuss MA.

 

[Archtkd]

I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder. No one has bashed anyone in this thread. No one has posted in a hostile manner...except you. This thread was specifically designed for people to discuss what they train in, what their focus is and the methods they use. And it seems people have been enjoying it. Lighten up and join the thread.

Peace.

Wow! Really? Get a chip off my shoulder, lighten up, posted in a hostile manner ....? And I bashed someone?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Wow! Really? Get a chip off my shoulder, lighten up, posted in a hostile manner ....? And I bashed someone?

This is what you come back with? Why not simply get into the spirit of the thread and join the discussion? Wouldn't that be the better path for you and Cole?

 

[mastercole]

I would add Zhao Dei Whei, Mya Ryu Jitsu, American Realistic Karate, Taekido, Shuri Te, Agni Kempo, Pangainoon, Hoshindo, some non-sport Tai Kwan Do sprinkled in there, and of course Han Moo Kwan that I learned from the Pizza delivery guy. Oh, I read a book or two on Uechi-Ryu, add all that to.

This would however change everything and get us closer to the ultimate style: http://youtu.be/ftcxkETg9cI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftcxkETg9cI&feature=youtu.be

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Although we do have a set curriculum, instructors are free to add their own 'flavour'. I have trained under three different instructors at our club. The first (6th dan) had ranking in hapkido and incorporated a lot of hapkido into his training, the second (6th dan) had a boxing background and did a lot of work on punching, and my current instructor (7th dan) has taught full time for 35-40 years and has incorporated many different elements from other arts into his tkd training. He also has a 5th dan student who is a high ranking police officer with a hapkido background and gets him to take a few classes here and there with regards to "what might happen on the street". I really enjoy his classes, he is a really nice bloke who has faced all sorts of bad stuff in his line of work and gives a great perspective to self defence training.
* Our self defence is largely left up to the individual instructor, although chokes, grabs, joint manipulation, break-falling are all part of the set curriculum. I would have to say our GM has a real passion for "balance displacement", when I have seen him teach (which is very rare these days due to old age) he constantly talks about balance and when/how to sense your opponent is off balance. Ive seen him do some demos and its quite impressive, he has a real feel for exactly where his opponents weight is centred, the second they are off balance he has them on the floor. Again the 'flavour' can change from instructor to instructor even though technically they teach the same thing. For instance, my previous instructor was right into throws and he ended many sequences with them. My new instructor teaches throws but generally advises against them.

Prior to my seniors retiring from the Dojang, this is precisely how I came up through the ranks. As of last year, we had 2 7th dans, 2 6th dans, and 2 5th dans in our dojang, which I believe is a rarity. Now, the 2 7th dans have retired from running a dojang, and I opened one of my own. So things are less "top" heavy, but that's another story.. .

I love that at high rank, you add your own "flavor." My instructors did it, and I have done so as well. Everyone has atleast one particular aspect of training that they love or bring a special expertise in to the table, and when there are multiple high ranking instructors, this can bring a diverse knowledge base to pull from, especially when they all teach the same curriculum.