What did the "Sport" do to Taekwondo?

[miguksaram]

Getting back to the issue of Men of letters and Men of Valor or fighting ability to decide a political post. This was not my original thought but told to me face to face in quiet dicusions with my GM who at one time was the most senior 9th Dan in Nth and Sth America and like many people had his personal bias or even embelished.

Naturally my first question is who was your GM? Secondly there is a fine line between embelish and full out lying. There is no bias in that statement he made...He simply lied to you, or never studied his own history.

But on this point he seemed very serious in his belief. I appreciate those of you who gave a more factual litteral account which I am sure you are right from your information and perspective. However it does cause me to ponder why he would have had such a firm belief in his mind and I intend to ask those other GM's who knew him well why he would have held such and opinion if they even know? Regardless in his life time he accomplished enough in combat in blood and death as well as the tireless contributions to TKD as a World Olympic and Traditional art that he earned the right to his personal beliefs wtih out insulting or negative rebutal from me or anyone else.

Many instructors loved to give a romantic view of the origins of TKD. We have all heard the 2000 year old history story along with how the Hwarang practiced in hiding to develop what is now TKD. These were great stories to foreigners since our only exposure to martial arts was usually Samurai Sundays or the Kung Fu Hour on TV.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The more limiting th sport the more damage it has done to TKD.

As and if each of the following was eliminated to concentrate on the sport aspect the greater the damage to the "ART". (Not neccesarily in order of importance

1. No patterns
2. No Breaking
3. No Punching to the head
4. No teaching of Philosophy
5. No Techniques below the belt.

Regarding number one, no patterns, patterns used in competition seem to have drifted away from the original use of patterns as well. Patterns were meant to reinforce technique and to serve as a teaching tool. Patterns, in general, contain further technique that is meant to be taught with them (karate calls it bunkai), and this has definitely been diminished to the point of nonexistence in taekwondo, at least on a broad scale.

Now, aesthetics are more important than functionality and subjective judging has rendered forms competions to be no more relevant to the martial arts than gymnastics or figure skating.

The limiting of techniques in the sport bother me less than the shift to an if I hit other guy more times than he hits me then I'm doing good mentality.

Also, the fact that little to no ephasis is placed on the quality of the kicks used and that what hand techniques are allowed are, as I understand, generally not scored further damages both the art and the sport.

To be perfectly frank, nobody outside of taekwondo, and not everyone inside of taekwondo, takes sport TKD seriously. Aside from the fact that people worked very hard to get it into the olympics, and are thus invested in it, the sport has essentially no following and, if what I read is to be believed, a very poor method of developing athletes on any kind of large scale. Compare that to football, baseball, basketball, tennis, wrestling or boxing.

The sport uses an model that is highly unsuited to developing a sport; one or two 'it' training camps and slew of dojangs that are, to varying degrees, extensions of what karate dojos were in the sixties and seventies. Back then, the tournament was a side show, something to allow schools to establish their reputations, and the tournaments, of course, were a lot broader in what techniques they allowed. If the school was producing tournament champions, it was likely because they were producing good, all around solid, fighters, not because of some kind of specialized athletics program.

As I have stated previously and in previous threads, I have no problem with the sport and respect the hard work and dedication of the athletes. But the sport needs to be separated competely from the art of taekwondo and needs to be trained in gyms, like boxing and wrestling are, and not in MA studios. Given the appeal to kids, the next logical step for the sport is to try to make inroads into the school system and colleges the way that football and wrestling have. The sport would gain much, much more traction that way and would break the hold of the 'exclusive training camps' pretty quickly.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

As I have stated previously and in previous threads, I have no problem with the sport and respect the hard work and dedication of the athletes. But the sport needs to be separated competely from the art of taekwondo and needs to be trained in gyms, like boxing and wrestling are, and not in MA studios. Given the appeal to kids, the next logical step for the sport is to try to make inroads into the school system and colleges the way that football and wrestling have. The sport would gain much, much more traction that way and would break the hold of the 'exclusive training camps' pretty quickly.

Daniel

Well we have seen it break on the scene at the collegiate level, but not so much on the high school or middle school level where they start to introduce sports such as football and wrestling into the school system. Unfortunately for that to happen you would need government funding of such programs along with qualified coaching, which I do not see happening, because they can barely keep teachers on staff much less sponsor a TKD team and their needs.

I am of the view point that sport shouldn't be seperated from the curriculum but it should not be the sole focus of the curriculum either. This where the problem lies in my opinoin. Too many schools switched their focus on trying to train people for the sport that they lost grip with the core of TKD itself.

Not everyone that walks into a dojang has their eyes set on being an elite athlete for the olympics.

 

[dancingalone]

Now, aesthetics are more important than functionality and subjective judging has rendered forms competions to be no more relevant to the martial arts than gymnastics or figure skating.

Yep. It's a problem endemic with forms competitions in general. In karate tournaments, there's something call shitei kata, which are essentially standardized forms chosen from each of the 4 major Japanese styles. They are meant to level the field so that a Goju stylist can compete in kata with someone from Shotokan or Wado-ryu.

I myself think shitei kata are an abomination and they are a concise summary of everything you could do wrong in training kata (for looks without necessarily also meaning).

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well we have seen it break on the scene at the collegiate level, but not so much on the high school or middle school level where they start to introduce sports such as football and wrestling into the school system. Unfortunately for that to happen you would need government funding of such programs along with qualified coaching, which I do not see happening, because they can barely keep teachers on staff much less sponsor a TKD team and their needs.

All high school sports are established in the high schools because somebody did the work to get them in place. If those who are behind sport TKD are unwilling to do that work, then they should quit complaining about things like elite training camps and the Lopez's having the olympics locked in; the Lopez family did the work to get their positions secured, good or bad, deserving or no.

If it is to take hold at the college level, there needs to be momentum at the high school level. You cannot build a sport from the top down; it simply will not work. Nor will it work at the high school level without some kind of support prior to students entering high school. Individual dojangs are not organized in such a way as to be effective in growing the sport, but they are fine for giving elementary and middle schoolers a base so that they could compete at a high school level.

High schools, junior high; both public and private, boys and girls clubs, and local leagues. These are what are needed.

There is no such thing as a WTF school. Want to build the sport without going through the same channels as every other sport? Establish WTF schools. I understand that you can have USAT schools. USAT schools need to be aggresive in building their sport programs and they need to build them as sports. Remember, its a specialized sport, not an MA, so it needs to be handled as one.

I am of the view point that sport shouldn't be seperated from the curriculum but it should not be the sole focus of the curriculum either.

I have yet to see any valid reasons for not separating the sport.

Why not separate them? Your very statement...

This where the problem lies in my opinoin. Too many schools switched their focus on trying to train people for the sport that they lost grip with the core of TKD itself.

...demonstrates why they ought to be separated: you cannot maintain a strong sport program and a strong traditional program without separating them. They have nothing to do with eachother. You are literally teaching two separate curriculums at the same time and will end up with one doing well and the other suffering or neither doing well and both suffering.

WTF sport TKD has about as much to do with the art of taekwondo as boxing does. They are not the same; their paths have gone in opposite directions, and now that the cat is out of the bag, there is no putting it back in.

Some kendo dojos offer Iaido. Iai and kendo both are regulated by the ZNKR, but Iai is a separate art and one ranks in it separately from kendo. As well they should; the two have little in common aside from hakamas and uwagis. The shinai is almost a foot longer than a katana, is straight; not curved, and the targets in kendo are limited to all above the waist, with only a portion of the torso, head and arms being valid points.

And kendo has more in commmon with Iaido than sport TKD does with taekwondo!

Want to keep them both in the same studio? Fine, but make them separate programs and rank the comp students separately from the 'art' students. There should be ranks in Kukki taekwondo and separate ranks in WTF sport. The two are completely different and should not be taught together.

The only way to keep the two together without one or the other being neglected would be to change the rules of the sport to reflect the art. But then you end up with sport karate, and the WTF will not sanction that.

Not everyone that walks into a dojang has their eyes set on being an elite athlete for the olympics.

Unless you build the sport, there will be nothing but the olympics to shoot for. Sports that succeed on any major level do so without the olympics.

Nobody cares one bit about bobsledding, gymnastics, swimming or figure skating until the olympics (sounds harsh, but nobody cares about 'Olympic' taekwondo even during the olympics).

Do those sports have their niche carved out? Yes, they do, and that is part of why taekwondo cannot succeed as it currently stands: the space that TKD needs as a sport with the olympics as the major goal has already been filled by other sports with established mechanisms for developing athletes.

You will not raise public interest in taekwondo as a sport by means of the olympics. That is because people do not bring their kids to the dojang to help them become athletes.

People have a perception that martial arts will teach their kids to defend themselves and will help to develop them as people. They don't care about the olympics or tournaments. Glitzy trophies in the window are a signal to western customers that the school is competent. They really don't care about the trophies, who won them, or in what tournament they were won. That is why dojangs are ill equiped to develop athletes.

The effort to develop athletes in dojangs was doomed from the start: dojangs were never intended to develop athletes. In focusing on sport, they shifted away from why their clientelle were actually in the studio in the first place.

Daniel

 

[Archtkd]

For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.

When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)

But as soon as the USAT took over, we swung the pendulum as far to the left as possible, where there is NO respect for rank or the art. Only respect given is to "winners". And the coaches of these winners. Who in some cases (within USAT) hold NO OFFICAL RANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (NOTE TO ALL: Official Rank within the WTF/USAT/Olympic community is a Kukkiwon cert... this isnt a debate about what official rank is, within this WTF sanctioned SPORT ... IT IS KukKiWon)

I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.

Back to the thread. although I'm tempted to rotate back to the more salacious stuff:

For all the bashing many of us like to dump on the sport aspects of Taekwondo there's quite a bit of good stuff that sport has helped bring to the art. Some folks who are much brighter than I have even suggested that the truly original Korean thing in WTF Taekwondo today is the development of footwork, kicking, punching, evading and to a lesser degree the blocking innovations that have sprung from the sport aspects of Taekwondo. Ongoing global research and development on the same is keeping the art in perpetual evolution -- to the dismay and disgust of some of us. How dare they change things!

The respect thing and the deterioration thereof can't be solely pinned on the USAT or other Taekwondo organizations. In general, there is a global decline in good manners and less appreciation for old school values. The causes of that slide include plain stupidity, poor or lack of good parenting, societal upheaval, lousy dojang leadership, educational stagnation, etc. Just look at the way many of us on MT choose to communicate (or miscommunicate) to get a good idea of what's gone wrong with Taekwondo and other martial arts. I even fear that the way this particular post will be dealt with will give us some more clues about the depth of rot that's slowly eating us all. The USAT and other Taekwondo orgs will not have anything to do with it.

 

[StudentCarl]

... the truly original Korean thing in WTF Taekwondo today is the development of footwork, kicking, punching, evading and to a lesser degree the blocking innovations that have sprung from the sport aspects of Taekwondo...

Well said. I spent the weekend at an athlete development camp. Much of our time was spent on transitions, footwork, and space and distance management, along with kicking and punching within those varying distances.

Learning these things is like learning to box a person instead of punching bags. Boxing is much, much more than just being able to punch. You can develop a decent jab, cross, hook, straight punch, etc, and have no clue how to move to use them effectively together, much less defend yourself.

 

[d1jinx]

this wasn't meant to be a bash USAT thing,

Both sides are welcomed and wanted... good and bad.

Unfortunately the negative always seems to take the lime light and that I too am guilty of contributing too...

One positive from the sport is the revolutionary developement of martial art gear. Prior to Sport TKD we wore hearvy 12-17oz duct canvas uniforms.... today drifit, ultralight, performance designed apparel are abundant.

And I too agree, the scientific approach to athlete developement that some do has filtered its way to many schools for daily training and practice. I never did ladder drills growing up.... now they are a part of many classes for footwork and cardio developement of even the NON-sport TKD students....

So there is much to say on both sides...

 

[Archtkd]

One positive from the sport is the revolutionary developement of martial art gear. Prior to Sport TKD we wore hearvy 12-17oz duct canvas uniforms.... today drifit, ultralight, performance designed apparel are abundant.

And I too agree, the scientific approach to athlete developement that some do has filtered its way to many schools for daily training and practice. I never did ladder drills growing up.... now they are a part of many classes for footwork and cardio developement of even the NON-sport TKD students....

So there is much to say on both sides...

Great point on gear. I swear, I think, I once wore chest protectors that felt like they had bamboo strips inside.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Miguksaram,

My last post, now that I've read it again, may have come across as belittling or confrontational. My apologies if so, as that was not my intent.

Daniel

 

[Master Dan]

Naturally my first question is who was your GM? Secondly there is a fine line between embelish and full out lying. There is no bias in that statement he made...He simply lied to you, or never studied his own history.


Many instructors loved to give a romantic view of the origins of TKD. We have all heard the 2000 year old history story along with how the Hwarang practiced in hiding to develop what is now TKD. These were great stories to foreigners since our only exposure to martial arts was usually Samurai Sundays or the Kung Fu Hour on TV.

Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them and if that is what your original Dan or rank comes from they are more like your father and you a deciple in the old days. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.

Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior.

I have always taught TKD as an Indigenous Native Art Form because that was always his position. Sport TKD is new and a modern thing and a very small piece of the total art. Like an cooking you too much of anything will spoil the taste. The issues of Korean, Janpanes, Chinese and many issues are like so many seasoning not all right and not all wrong. But some times youth causes people to draw very hard lines of black and white, age will teach you not everything is as it seems.

I am working some University researchers to see if we can confirm any history related to sport or physical competitions or challenges related to political posts or at least is there any conditions that would validate such an opinion. If I find that I will post it either way.

 

[Master Dan]

Can anyone comment on who invented the first versions of the foam dipped sparring gear. Again it could be Urban Legend but I remeber people talking in the early days that GM Rhee introduced one of the first lines and made considerable money from that?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Can anyone comment on who invented the first versions of the foam dipped sparring gear. Again it could be Urban Legend but I remeber people talking in the early days that GM Rhee introduced one of the first lines and made considerable money from that?

If you are referring to Jhoon Rhee, I have heard that he introduced the foam dipped gear as well, but I do not know for certain. I have also heard others credit him with the 'gold' or yellow belt. Not sure if that is really accurate either. He has done well for himself financially, though I certainly do not begrudge him. One of his schools was an early and very positive experience with the martial arts for me.

The foam dipped gear that I am thinking of is unrelated to what is worn in WTF sport. I remember being at a school when I was nineteen and we sparred using the foam hand and foot guards, a cup and a mouth piece. It was enough to guard against any real serious injury, though that was still a possibility. But you certainly felt hits more than with the hogu.

Daniel

 

[Cirdan]

I wonder why the whole respect and sport vs art thing gets so blown up in TKD. Yep the olympic sport looks kind of silly but Karate and JJ fighting rules does not exactly reflect an all out fight either and certainly not self defense. Yet in these arts just about everybody agree that sports are a different world altogether.

Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them and if that is what your original Dan or rank comes from they are more like your father and you a deciple in the old days. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.

Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior.

Hey we understand you Master. It is not like any of us would spew unfounded bs on a MA discussion board and have our teachers to back it up either.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them ......................................

. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.........................

Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior..................


.

To quibble with a few points:
1. If the art is to progress, then at least the better students should be more than the sum total of their instructor(s). I tell my students that they should be better instrutors than I am becausethey had a better instructor than I had. This is not a slam on my instructor, instead it is a compliment because he was better than his instructors because he had a better instructor than he had. That being said. I have been taught by some who I will never surpass due to their outstanding knowledge and abilities, and since I keep learning, I hope that at least during my lifetime my students will not surpass me in terms of knowledge and teaching ability. Sadly, for all of us the physicality wanes so if we stick around long enough the physical abilities of ou students should easily pass what we then possess. Whether they pass how we were at out prime is another matter.

2. It would not sully your GMs name to post it if he is held in high esteem by his peers and some Keyboard commando rightly or wrongly questions what he allegedly said. I for one can chalk any inaccuracies in what he allegedly said to you allegedly not fully understanding him.

I am really more interested from a historical perspective as to where he fits in based upon your claim of his seniority.

 

[Master Dan]

To quibble with a few points:
1. If the art is to progress, then at least the better students should be more than the sum total of their instructor(s). I tell my students that they should be better instrutors than I am becausethey had a better instructor than I had. This is not a slam on my instructor, instead it is a compliment because he was better than his instructors because he had a better instructor than he had. That being said. I have been taught by some who I will never surpass due to their outstanding knowledge and abilities, and since I keep learning, I hope that at least during my lifetime my students will not surpass me in terms of knowledge and teaching ability. Sadly, for all of us the physicality wanes so if we stick around long enough the physical abilities of ou students should easily pass what we then possess. Whether they pass how we were at out prime is another matter.

2. It would not sully your GMs name to post it if he is held in high esteem by his peers and some Keyboard commando rightly or wrongly questions what he allegedly said. I for one can chalk any inaccuracies in what he allegedly said to you allegedly not fully understanding him.
I am really more interested from a historical perspective as to where he fits in based upon your claim of his seniority.


You can PM I would be happy to tell you off line and yes of course you are right on point 1 he even and I do also practice that as well I was thinking in terms of before you progress to that point but some of the old GM's cannot be passed up and when they are gone some things are lost.

His Chi power was enormous I have been able to duplicate many of his techniques but smashing a 7 ounce 7 up bottel palm or punching is not only totally dangerous but it requires huge crushing power that my body frame just realistically could never do or possibly just could not get past the fear. I have the done the other glass techniques. The bottle has to be completed crushed on impact or as you come back up your tendons and arteries are cut.

 

[terryl965]

Justa question for Master Dam why is everything you get ask needs to be said by pm? I mean this is what this forum is for converstation and to get things out inthe open, not trying to be rude or anything but why be here posting if alot of questions need to be answered by a pm?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Justa question for Master Dam why is everything you get ask needs to be said by pm? I mean this is what this forum is for converstation and to get things out inthe open, not trying to be rude or anything but why be here posting if alot of questions need to be answered by a pm?

On the one hand, I'd ask the very same question. On the other, maybe going to PM is for the best.

Given that what he is being asked about (support for statements about a Mortal Kombat style selection process for government officials in Korea, name of his GM, etc.) has little to nothing to do with sport TKD, I'd rather see it go to either PM or another thread.

He obviously wants to keep his GM's name off of the main board but is willing to answer Master Weiss. I can respect that.

We have enough discussions over unsupportable statements regarding Korean MA history in the archives here. Also enough heated debate about chi/ki/qi.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Miguksaram,

My last post, now that I've read it again, may have come across as belittling or confrontational. My apologies if so, as that was not my intent.

Daniel

You made me cry into my beer. hahaha...No worries. I've known you long enough on this board that you rarely ever mean to belittle anyone in your posts.

 

[miguksaram]

Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them and if that is what your original Dan or rank comes from they are more like your father and you a deciple in the old days. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.

Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior.

. My condolences on your loss and I understand the whole aspect of the guy you got your first dan with is one who tends to be a big role model to you. My instructor was the same way to me. However, I learned through time that a lot of what he told me was either his exagerations or ignorance of facts. That did not deminish his standing in my eyes at all. With that said, I stand by my statement; if he told you that people in Korea used to have fights in order to determine who gained a political position the he either lied to you or he doesn't know his history

I have always taught TKD as an Indigenous Native Art Form because that was always his position.

There is no indigenous native form of TKD...What you taught was shotokan karate, if you want to "indigenous".

Sport TKD is new and a modern thing and a very small piece of the total art.

While I agree it is a small aspect of TKD, it is not new. Sport aspect of TKD has been around almost as long as TKD has functioned as an art.

Like an cooking you too much of anything will spoil the taste. The issues of Korean, Janpanes, Chinese and many issues are like so many seasoning not all right and not all wrong. But some times youth causes people to draw very hard lines of black and white, age will teach you not everything is as it seems.

It has nothing to do with youth drawing hard lines. In this case it has to do with the head chefs saying that the receipe is some ancient indigenous secret when in fact they grabbed it from their neighbors next door. Or in your case the chef is saying that they had to have a cook off in order to determine who was going to make the soup.

I know you are a senior but all things said and done, I have just 10 years less in the arts than you have. So don't worry my youth is not so young.

I am working some University researchers to see if we can confirm any history related to sport or physical competitions or challenges related to political posts or at least is there any conditions that would validate such an opinion. If I find that I will post it either way.

Do you know which area of Korean history you are going to examine? I would recommend around 238 BCE...this is the start of the Buyeo. Around that time is when Korea was divided up into specific tribes or confederacies. Else you will want to look at around 57 BCE which is when they established what is now known as the 3 Kingdoms of Korea.