What did the "Sport" do to Taekwondo?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since TKD is the most popular you definetly see it most rampant in the belt mills. What would be an interesting study is to see if the percentage of TKD schools that are belt mills are the same or more than that of other arts.

In other words you may have 100 TKD schools and 60 of them are belt mills (60%) and you have 40 Karate schools and 24 of them are belt mills (60%) so it would be the same. There just happen to be more TKD schools than Karate.

From what I have seen, both quanity and percentage is greater in taekwondo. This would be true if were any other art. Once you have the quanity, the percentage goes up because you now have a commercial dynamic in motion that perpetuates itself throughout the art.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As I stated previously,

Sport TKD needs to take a page from the kendo rule book. No valid point if you're off ballance, exhibit poor form, or are sloppy in your execution. Personally, I think that they should reset the fighters after a valid point is scored, but make the scoring that point more challenging. Keep the electronic hogu but also make judging of the form and execution the primary focus of scoring rather than just hit or no hit.

The above would solve all pretty much all of the issues with the sport and would do a lot to improve taekwondo's image. It would also improve the quality of the practitioners, as it would place an emphasis on correct technique under pressure. Belts could be kept and rank maintained. The gear suppliers get to keep their thing going and nobody has to go out and relearn their techniques. The 'art not sport' crowd would see well executed correct kicks in a competion environment and would be able to connect what they see in the sport to the art.

Everyone wins.

Daniel

 

[Master Dan]

For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.

I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.

The worship of elite fighters over the Traditional Values of the whole art started in the US in full swing in the early 70's. I complained about behavior and abuse issues to my GM explaining Dan's and higher rank should not be given to people who have behavior issues. I soon realized that in the business of MA the top fighter and large trophies was a way to get people to come into the DoJang.

Next thing you know it becomes a race/cold war between Dojangs who has the most state,jr national,national champions. Any master that could say or advertise they are an Olympic coach is better than another DoJang. Mind you this all started with USTU. But the Olympic dream and sport TKD was just that a dream and not serving the masses who pay for everything. In addition the original purpose and method of fighting became so watered down that fighting was reduced to a game of tag just trying to finish with one point ahead and reduced to a litigation of scores instead of respect for judges or hope of fair and unbiased scoring?

Now the preverbial birds have come home to roost and we are left with the USAT and MMA proposing they are the answer to everything. I listened to my own GM explaining to one of our senior bb who had 15,000 square feet do jang all matted in fighting rings who lost 75% of his students you need to not push sport TKD and go back to Traditional TKD roots. Sad thing is many Sports focused masters were never taught anything but sport and are strugling to find something else to do or just end up quiting teaching and training all together.

I have a Korean Master I have a special love for who has nothing to do with sport/Olympic TKD and focuses on traditional TKD values abstaining from involvement with all the politics and back stabbing that goes on here between masters and other clubs he believes there is just one Tae Kwon Do and loves that. He once said to me you Americans ( American Masters) are greedy you want respect but you must show respect by example to teach them. Anyway he has the most successfull Do Jang in the state while the other Masters bad mouth him he just built a new $7 milion dollar Dojang.

 

[dancingalone]

From what I have seen, both quanity and percentage is greater in taekwondo. This would be true if were any other art. Once you have the quanity, the percentage goes up because you now have a commercial dynamic in motion that perpetuates itself throughout the art.

Daniel

Makes sense to me. The bigger participation you get in something, the stronger the undercurrent to move towards the lowest common denominator.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Makes sense to me. The bigger participation you get in something, the stronger the undercurrent to move towards the lowest common denominator.

Not so much lowest common denominator as highest model for profit. Everyone wants to succeed. Everyone wants to do well. As Master Dan pointed out, competition trophies bring people into the school. And so, sport and competition were emphasized.

Same happened with daycare, fitness programs, and other programs that were tangental but profitable. Once the model is working for a few, it is adopted by many.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Not so much lowest common denominator as highest model for profit. Everyone wants to succeed. Everyone wants to do well. As Master Dan pointed out, competition trophies bring people into the school. And so, sport and competition were emphasized.

I have no idea about the profit aspect, but teaching children together with adults as I now do, I'm very much constrained by what the least experienced and least able student can do when we run through the exercises. In the small training space we have available, it's not practical to divide and run tandem sessions with different activities.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have no idea about the profit aspect, but teaching children together with adults as I now do, I'm very much constrained by what the least experienced and least able student can do when we run through the exercises. In the small training space we have available, it's not practical to divide and run tandem sessions with different activities.

Yes, I experience that in mixed classes as well, thought that was not the dynamic that I was referring to.

I was talking about the rapid promotion of students in order to collect testing fees, which results in inferior black belts because the students have not stayed in the geub grades long enough to have fully internalized the material. Said blackbelts may also have deficiencies in maturity, resulting in a lack of proper respect and behavior. Lower belts within the arts see this and the rank of black belt is devalued. People outside of the art see this and taekwondo black belts are devalued. It's hard to respect a rank that was given in the interest of financial gain.

What I mean by daycare is not mixed classes but afterschool programs, summer camp, etc. And of course, the aforementioned fitness programs are another commercially motivated item. Not that these things are bad, in and of themselves, but they are each another thing to divert the efforts of the school in directions that are not related to the teaching of taekwondo. Most schools cannot afford to hire dedicated personel to staff these programs, so instructors double as daycare providers and personal trainers, when really, their time outside of the classes they teach is better spent training and maintaining their own skills.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I was talking about the rapid promotion of students in order to collect testing fees, which results in inferior black belts because the students have not stayed in the geub grades long enough to have fully internalized the material. Said blackbelts may also have deficiencies in maturity, resulting in a lack of proper respect and behavior. Lower belts within the arts see this and the rank of black belt is devalued. People outside of the art see this and taekwondo black belts are devalued.

I can't agree more. Perhaps I should start a new thread, but IMO this is tied into the popular belief that 'a black belt means you are now ready to really learn'. Rapid, expected promotions every 2-3 months also contribute to students deficient in both technique and attitude.

 

[Master Dan]

I wanted to jump in again related to sport sparring?

The traditional reason for sparring was never about children and average family members to fight and compete at some high level to determin a winner.

At one time in Korea sparring was used to determine political posts by a process of elimination with the highest post going to the most qualified fighter not wining by one point but last man standing so to speak.

The public consensus as it was taught to me was that when the country was run by men of valor ( fighters with honor) things went well when the country was run by men of Letters ( attorneys) things did not go so well. This was a basic philosphy of many early GM's mine as well as Ernie Reyes Senior's GM who taught the purpose of fighting was to develop maturity both spiritual and mental and improve basic self defense conditioning both physically and mentally.

Fighting was never meant to be a pure sport related the Olympics and hence alot of quality in fighting and even technique was lost especially the use of hands. My GM was first cousin to Mas Oyama and had many of his strengths related to hands and he once in frustration related to me in 2002 that they should just call TKD Foot Way because the art of using the hands is lost, not realizing that he and others are responsible for that loss due to being part of the watering down of the traditional art form in the name of chasing the dollar and the prestige of the Olympics.

The point to being a BB is not just pure force but Control. Control to hit or touch exactly what you want were you want how you want. That is key to self defense and key to students training hard with out injury. We have lost that and now train and run tournaments like a bunch of scared chickens afraid of any contact. Training kids to not even attempt head contact for years and then all of sudden you can is rediculous!! The person throwing technique must have control and pull it if needed regardless what if the other kid bends over? The person getting taged in the head is learning to keep thier guard up.

What is a center referee for? The minute he sees excessive contact he should step in and stop the fight. For adult competitors they should have the maturity to bow out if they are totally out matched.

The purpose of fighting was never sport! The purpose of tournament was education, to watch and study the oponents or others and to learn what works and what does not work. Our GM always taught that winning was many times luck combined with being a smarter fighter not just pure techinque. Controling the fight so that your contact was clearly visiable to as many of the corner judges as possible, attitude and agressive pursuit. But at the end of the day a bit of luck and you had favorable judges and the moral fiber to take what ever the decision was with good attitude never never argue with the judges and refs. The point to fighting was to build character, learn and to earn the respect of your oponent by making him work for it if he was going to win. Best advice want to win simple knock the other person out!!!!

My favorite story told by Ernie Reyes Senior's GM was about fighting in Korea. He said that he trained for weeks in the mountains letting the Buddhist Preists feed him rice till he became so powerful he felt he could break trees and crush rocks. The day came for the tournament he destroyed all his oponents then it came to the final and a much smaller competitor came out he had no respect for him figured he beat him easily. At every point the smaller man beat him faster smarter no matter what he did and he lost the fight. He tore off his uniform and threw on the ground in the arean and ran away to weep like a baby in hidding. He learned a great lesson that day that being a smart fighter was just as important as just being strong. He also learned he had a very bad attitude and that he had to change.

It is an honor to fight the best and a great reward to earn thier respect. Winning 1st 2nd 3rd is not the focus but participation and effort is its own reward. The only loosers are the people who choose to sit on thier butts becasue they can't have 1st place?? Our whole American culture around the Olympics Oh so sad you only got Bronze?? That is Fd up.

Tae Kwon Do is trying to go back in time to Traditional Values but It will only happen one master at a time it remains to be seen if one national organization will be ever able to do that again Tae Kwon Do for myself, for others and for my country. I now only take students to open tournaments that they can get exposure to many arts and cultural education I could care less about Olympic Sport

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I can't agree more. Perhaps I should start a new thread, but IMO this is tied into the popular belief that 'a black belt means you are now ready to really learn'.

Originally, or at least the way that I first heard that, it was that "a black belt has learned how to learn," which is very different from being ready to learn. Phrased that way, I agree with it, but also feel that that is only part of the picture. A black belt has learned how to learn in the art because they have become proficient in the geub grade material. Proficiency in a large body of material takes time, often more than two years, which brings us to the problem you mention below...

Rapid, expected promotions every 2-3 months also contribute to students deficient in both technique and attitude.

This is detrimental to the development of one's students, and the whole blackbelt-having-learned-how-to-learn philosophy has been misused to justify rapid promotions, which generally are more about collection of as many testing fees as possible so that should the student quit after two years, they've gotten as much money out them as possible.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

At one time in Korea sparring was used to determine political posts by a process of elimination with the highest post going to the most qualified fighter not wining by one point but last man standing so to speak.

Political post as in government or TKD? When was this done?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Political post as in government or TKD? When was this done?

Beats me. I don't recall tkd organizations ever appointing posts in such a way and if the Korean government ever did (which I doubt), it was prior to the fourteenth century.

Skill at arms is not really a good indicator of skill in administrating. One need only look at the woes of the Kukkiwon in recent years to see that.

Daniel

 

[Cirdan]

Political post as in government or TKD? When was this done?

I am sure they found some wall carvings in a cave somewhere...

 

[dancingalone]

The public consensus as it was taught to me was that when the country was run by men of valor ( fighters with honor) things went well when the country was run by men of Letters ( attorneys) things did not go so well. This was a basic philosphy of many early GM's mine as well as Ernie Reyes Senior's GM who taught the purpose of fighting was to develop maturity both spiritual and mental and improve basic self defense conditioning both physically and mentally.

Surely the two can coincide and should? General Choi and most of the kwan founders were educated men. Choi even wrote books, some on military intelligence to boot.

Japan's post-war constitution was written by General MacArthur... who graduated first in his class at West Point.

And of course we know the outstanding scholarship the majority of the US' Founding Fathers possessed. Jefferson and Adams were both legal scholars, and Adams was a famous courtroom lawyer.

 

[miguksaram]

The public consensus as it was taught to me was that when the country was run by men of valor ( fighters with honor) things went well when the country was run by men of Letters ( attorneys) things did not go so well. This was a basic philosphy of many early GM's mine as well as Ernie Reyes Senior's GM who taught the purpose of fighting was to develop maturity both spiritual and mental and improve basic self defense conditioning both physically and mentally.

No disrespect meant towards your GM, but I highly recommend reading up on Korean history. There has always been in fighting with Korea. Kings were overthrown multiple times by the "men of valor" and not always because the Kings were tyranical to the people, some were overthrown simply because of someone disagreed with them or someone just wanted power.

By "men of Letters" I will assume he is referring to more Neo-Confusianism which took control towards the end of the Koryo dynasty. Ironicly prior to that the men of valor time took great pride in the caste system and position of the heirarchy was everything. During the men of Letters time, the caste system slowly was broken down. The philosophical ideas of the role of government was to serve the common man in all factions of life.

 

[StudentCarl]

One thing it did was to level the playing field. In a sport, respect is earned in part through skill. Sport gives skill a higher value than it does seniority (belt level, age, etc.). It places value on what you can do more than how you're dressed--in that way it gives a reality check. What can you deliver on the mat?

What it doesn't change is sportsmanship, which grants (or should) unconditional respect (and courtesy) to others regardless of skill, age, rank, etc. The tenets are core to the definition of taekwondo values, but it's no stretch to say they are also core values within the concept of sportsmanship--for any sport.

It also doesn't change that respect is earned through character and contribution.

 

[Tez3]

..........Now the preverbial birds have come home to roost and we are left with the USAT and MMA proposing they are the answer to everything. ..............

Ah the sneaky attack on MMA, I'm not sure how you work out that MMA thinks it has the answer to everything lol, it's not an organisation at all. In many countries it doesn't even have a governing body.
It might be an idea to stop blaming MMA for everything and keep to the subject of the OP.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

One thing it did was to level the playing field. In a sport, respect is earned in part through skill. Sport gives skill a higher value than it does seniority (belt level, age, etc.). It places value on what you can do more than how you're dressed--in that way it gives a reality check. What can you deliver on the mat?

What it doesn't change is sportsmanship, which grants (or should) unconditional respect (and courtesy) to others regardless of skill, age, rank, etc. The tenets are core to the definition of taekwondo values, but it's no stretch to say they are also core values within the concept of sportsmanship--for any sport.

It also doesn't change that respect is earned through character and contribution.

Great post!

One of the problems with sport TKD is that it is that the context of sportsmanship is not strongly defined. The way it is in established sports. That is one of the problems with divorcing the sport from the art but trying to hang on to the outward trappings of the art and trying to be called a martial art.

Certainly, it can be done.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ah the sneaky attack on MMA, I'm not sure how you work out that MMA thinks it has the answer to everything lol, it's not an organisation at all. In many countries it doesn't even have a governing body.
It might be an idea to stop blaming MMA for everything and keep to the subject of the OP.

Say it aint so! MMA doesn't have the answer to everything? Well snickerdoodles! First the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy are revealed to be nonexistent and now this!! At least I still have Santa Claus.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

Say it aint so! MMA doesn't have the answer to everything? Well snickerdoodles! First the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy are revealed to be nonexistent and now this!! At least I still have Santa Claus.

Daniel

Wait....what about the Easter Bunny?