What characterizes the empty hand techniques of Ninjitsu?

[heretic888]

you could say ninjutsu well the Bujinkan Taijutsu is like jujitsu. 6 of the schools that bujinkan teaches is jujitsu and the other 3 is ninja schools.

Actually, that's not the case at all. Togakure ryu is not 'jujutsu'. And there is more ninpo in the schools of the Bujinkan then the three ryuha that are Ninpo Taijutsu. The theme of this year's training is Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu....being a Jujutsu school.

There are only 3 Main Ninpo schools in the bujinkan system. I know Togakure Ryu isn't jujitsu its one of the ninpo schools.

Yes, Togakure ryu is a Ninpo ryuha. However, saying that Ninpo is only contained in the three Ninpo Taijutsu ryuha of the Bujinkan is incorrect.

Hmmph. I have always found this unusual disctintion between 'ninja' and 'non-ninja' schools in the Bujinkan quite odd....... especially when you consider the fact that a good deal of the schools (Togakure-ryu, Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Kuki Shinden-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu, etc.) come from the Hakuun-ryu ninjutsu of Garyu Doshi (second jonin of Iga-ryu ninpo).

Every style that gets sufficiently popular eventually loses this battle. The term "karate" is completely generic and it still frustrates me to hear talk of "Korean karate" etc. and to have people judge Okinawan karate by what they have learned seeing five year old black belts in TKD ("Korean karate"). For the FMA one sees things like "Kenpo Arnis" all over. Look at the battles over who is teaching the "real" Jeet Kune Do and who is just an imposter! You can't win, I'm afraid.

Yes, absolutely. I agree completely. The problem is that the more people that begin to study the art, the more likely the average practitioner's level of quality will be less.

 

[Bujingodai]

Well, Richard has always been polite to me so I will reply to this one. i wouldn't over at E-Budo as it would have been one sided. I don't need the stress.
First off, I don't have a need for anyones approval. I am hardly one of the schools that make crazy claims.
I learned in the Kan, and yes that represents maybe my kamae and so on. I was only there for a few years and there were circumstances to my departure. And now politics keeps me away, and the love for what my teacher shows me. But let me point form my side
-I did appreciate Phils review, just didn't like where it ended up.
-as for those who chaf of UNV on E-Budo I created it to get the "losers" off E-Budo to talk somewhere else.
-The Bujingodai or Honshin Ryu to be more specific, is not my art. Though I handle the business side or interenet stuff. My teacher is in the states I spend about 8 wks a year with him currently
-The Bujingodai school happened by accident. I needed someone to continue practcing between seminars and sessions with the Kan. It just grew as I did away from my other instructors.
-I am very humbled by the term Sensei. I am just an instructor that has done some good training IMO. I get great learning out of teaching.
-I will continue what I am doing and call it Ninjutsu and practice the Ninpo aspect of it as well, what I can and what my obvious knowledge is, and I will seek more. The Name to me is what I trained in, what my teacher also calls it and what it will be called.
-I do not rep the Kans or what they do.
-I admit on my site it is a Hybrid or "composite" I like that word better.
-the strike thing Richard, OK then that was what I was taught as one reason. And the beginning of an earth strike as well. Saigan no kamae was taught to me by a Bujinkan Shidoshi. As well as the reason. But that is open for discussion. Correct me then so I can re correct my guys.
-As for any other reasons why I may represent Bad Budo. Hmm I don't charge anything really $15 a month for supplies. I am connected with the Family and Child services here to help some of the more screwed up kids as I also am educated in psych to a degree. I relate a very family like atmosphere.
-As for the practice of Ninpo, again up to interpretation. As my own interpretation this is the largest part, Ninjutsu is but the physical. Ninpo to me is the warriorship of your life and how you live it. The alternative training such as the senses blah blah. etc etc. The mental aspect of warfare and the metaphysical side of the "feeling" of Ninjutsu. I am afraid I didn't even explain how I see it that well but my typing sucks.
-I have never reffered to myself as a Ninja, I am a warrior. And I am very proud of what I do.
-Though again this is just my interpretation and is likely all wrong to you. But then thats what makes the world go round OK

 

[Bujingodai]

Continueing on the not being Bad Budo. Just based on what E-Budo calls it.
I have never said the style was anything but efficient. I don't claim lineage. I am not a super Soke or even a founder. Not saying its the best or you'll get chicks doing it. Not a mc dojo. The video is free and for distance people that have asked for it, actually only 2. No profit in at actually it cost me babysitting to make it time off work and mailing fees. I will never ask someone to pay for it. Why, it is only a video.

I also have suggested on this board and E-budo if you are looking for traditional Ninpo go to the Kans.

I wanted to re enter the Kan some time ago. I am afraid the political ******** made my mind very clear.

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

David,

I do not agree with people using the term Ninpo or Ninjutsu unless they have either recieved Menkyo in it, or they are training in it currently, that means Tanemura Sensei or Hatsumi Sensei.

Anything else I consider Neo Ninja and a joke. This is how I feel. Now as far as you a person, I have nothing against you at all, you may be a nice guy, you may be a GREAT Budoka etc...

I just think what you train in is half baked. Your base is from Bujinkan I am assuming, and most Bujinkan people don't really know Ninpo. In My 18 years of Bujinkan I have found FEW who were any good and had any real knowledge. There are some REALLY good ones of course but they are far and few in between.

So a system based on that experience and then changed etc.. Is.. Well... There are good reasons for everything in Ninpo, to change them, add to them etc.. Is just creating a mish mash.

I really don't want to get into this deeper. It can cause hard feelings. just me publicly stating my opinion on any neo ninja art is bound to cause hard feelings, I am sure since you are doing your art, you must like it. therefore I have just dumped on something dear to you and this will of course cause hurt feelings maybe anger etc...

Lets agree to dis agree and move on, nothing good can come of this. Again, I am sorry I said anything in the first place...

regards,

 

[Makoto-Dojo]

Originally posted by Bujingodai


I wanted to re enter the Kan some time ago. I am afraid the political ******** made my mind very clear.

BTW there is ZERO Political BS in the Genbukan. Everything is laid out nice and clear and we TRAIN! Door is always open

regards,

 

[arnisador]

It might be best to have further discussion of this issue take place via PM or e-mail.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[heretic888]

BTW there is ZERO Political BS in the Genbukan. Everything is laid out nice and clear and we TRAIN! Door is always open

I could say something here, but it wouldn't be very nice and would not contribute to the discussion in any way, shape, or form. thus, i shall refrain.

 

[Bujingodai]

I accept what you are saying politely Richard. I may even state for the record that the base in Buj, is up to interpretation. But a base nonetheless.
Now again I see your opinion on what Ninpo is and you are definatly a more secure source for that opinion. Thanks for your input on it.
Opinions will differ and that makes the world great
I stilll appreciate your way of approaching the topic. I for one have no interest in the slice and dice.
FYI there are no Gen dojo's within a 5 hrs drive from me. Otherwise I'd be back in my hometown and likely still training under my Bujinkan Sensei.
But cool nonetheless, the invitation is appreciated and considered.

 

[Jay Bell]

*chuckle* Richard...why is it that everytime your mouth opens, it sounds like a Genbukan commercial?

 

[heretic888]

:rofl:

 

[Phil Elmore]

Well, that's one thing on which Richard and I agree. I'm a firm believer in promoting those things you find worthwhile in life.

 

[Jay Bell]

Phil,

You've never struck me as the type to downplay everything else to give validity to the things you find worthwhile.

 

[leehoicheun]

I have been a martial artist and a martial scientist for over 20 years. I am also the owner of the Syracuse Wing Chun Academy . I do not want to anger anyone in my view points but I feel it has to be made........ just to have a little fun and spark some good debate.


the subject? Martial Snobery

what am I talking about? Here it goes...... martial arts/sciences have been a HUGE part of my life since I was 9 years old. I have studied extensivly in Karate, western boxing, filipino arts, kung fu and many many more. In all those years I have seen people down play other arts and argue over dumb things like "is it Ninpo or Nunpo?" Who cares!!! Why are people so fasinated with such trivial information? Here's an example:

In Wing Chun I have seen these spellings:

Wing Chun
Ving Chun
Ving Tsun
Ving Tzun
Wing Tzoon
Weng Chun
Weng cheun

and many more. The funny thing is this..... THEY ARE ALL THE SAME THING! Of course there are those Wing Chun styist who have only studied under ONE Wing Chun family who will disagree with me and to that I say..... go out there and study from every source you can and you will see that what I stated is the truth.

Like Bruce Lee said "Until humans grow a third leg or arm nothing you do will be any different then what has been done before. In truth, they are all the same.

ok, now I know someone is just waiting to rip me a new one for this, that's ok....... after hitting the post key I am going to open my academy doors and train.

My Sifu once asked me a question. He asked "what is the most boring thing about classical music?" I said to him, "Nothing that I can think of, I love classical music." He then said, "The most boring thing about classical music are the people wo over analyze it and then choose to write about it on the back of the record."...... point well taken Sifu.

Have a great day all

 

[Touch Of Death]

Just to add to that last post. I think the most worthless thing that any one can say on the internet is ,"I'm not impressed...". First of all nobody cares what some faceless poster thinks. Sure we can piss eachother off, but as Phil suggested, lets see some substance and a little less personal attacks. I know of an Ninjitsu school in Denver that is pure Ed Parkers American Kenpo. Why they call themselves Ninja I'll never Know but I'm sure money and eighties ninja movies have somthing to do with it. There is a school a "true" ninja should ***** about. And its all perfectly legal.
Sean

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I know of an Ninjitsu school in Denver that is pure Ed Parkers American Kenpo.

I knew one in the 80s that was simply Goju-ryu karate.

 

[Rod Coulter]

Good day all,

Personally from what I have experienced being in the Bujinkan over the past 16 or so years is simply the fact that yes there are some Schools who use Ninjitsu as the spelling and some that use Ninjutsu, They are the same and I would have to agree with the gentleman who posted on the Wing Chun names..

As far as how many schools within the Bujinkan I have known there to be 9 schools, this comes from the Takamatsu/Hatsumi Lineage.
As far as the 11-15 Dans. Hatsumi Has explained them to be partially a gift, a recognition of dedication, and yes to some extent an extension of the 10th Dan. And also reality being what it is another way to generate revenue for the Bujinkan. Which in all honesty I see nothing wrong with making money in the martial arts, so the ranking system Can be taken with a grain of salt, as I have played on the floor with 10th dans in the Budokan in Tokyo who move worse then some green belts I have trained with in Calgary, So point here I guess would be it is all very relative to the individual and when they got the rank.

As far as the listings of the 9 Schools, I will dig out my manuals and post here further if there is any interest in this information.

and that's my $.02 worth.